Languages, Dialects, Accents

by LoveUniHateExams 180 Replies latest jw friends

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    I made sure my kids studied Latin in school - this is the first time I've studied it.

    Although I have known some Latin words for a long time because Latin features prominently in the scientific community's naming of animals, etc.

    E.g. Tyrannosaurus rex means 'tyrant lizard king', the rex part is Latin. Other terms from scientific papers are familiar, such as in utero (in the womb), etc.

    English has lots borrowed lots of words from Latin, and I still remember some school-boy French, which is itself a language that evolved from vulgar Latin.

    Now that is one odd language - Haitian creole is based on French, I believe.

    A mixture of French plus west African languages.

    Jamaican patois is mostly a mixture of English plus west African languages, I think. So I'm kinda going by that.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    Also, I'm struck by how logical Latin is.

    There's quite a lot of grammar but the book breaks it down and introduces it well, it seems.

    I have only studied the first three chapters but I know all about three of the six grammatical cases - the nominative, the accusative and the ablative.

    Proper names like place names and personal names are nouns, too.

    So in Latin they, too, must have case endings to show their meaning in a sentence.

    Paulus Benedictum non amat - Paul doesn't like Benedict.

    Benedictus Paulum non amat - Benedict doesn't like Paul.

    Paulus cum Benedicto ad oppidum ambulat - Paul walks with Benedict towards the town.

    Makes sense, no?

    I think Russian and Greek also have inflection of proper nouns.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    Just thought I'd return to this thread.

    I'm not learning Arabic at the moment (my laptop has broken down, I'm basically too poor to get it mended and also buy the kind of learning materials I'd like) but I did see an interesting book in the library. It has a section on the Arabic numbers and counting that explains things for me. The situation is a bit more complicated than counting in English.

    In English, it's all very simple: we say one + the singular of the noun, e.g. one cat. Then from two upwards, we say the number then the plural, e.g. two cats, ten cats, twenty men, etc.

    There are a few little odd things for the learner of English to be aware of - we sometimes say fifty pound, instead of fifty pounds. And when I talk about my height, I don't say five feet ten inches, I say five foot ten.

    Lastly, there are a few informal or regional terms as well - a grand means 1000, K also means thousand, a score means twenty, etc. But it's basically plain-sailing.

    And now for numerals and counting in Arabic.

    For abstract counting (i.e. counting without the object), Arabic has the following:

    1. waahed

    2. ithnaaan

    3. thalaatha

    4. arba3a

    5. khamsa

    6. sitta

    7. sab3a

    8. thamaania

    9. tis3a

    10. 3ashara

    I always wondered why 3 to 10 end in -a (in Arabic script, the ending is actually ta marboota, a t that is usually silent) but 1 and 2 don't. The book explains that for abstract counting, 1 and 2 are in the masculine form and 3 to 10 are in their feminine forms.

    I want to show you how complicated the number system gets in Arabic, so I'll be comparing two nouns, and how to count with them: bayt ('house', masculine) and bint ('girl', feminine).

    To say 'one girl' or 'one house', you don't bother with waahed (1), plus Arabic has no indefinite article (a, an) so you can just say bint or bayt.

    To say two houses/girls, again you don't bother with ithnaan (2) because Arabic has a dual ending (-aan) for nouns. So bintaan ... baytaan.

    From 3 to 10, you use the numbers with the plural form of the noun. The plural of bayt is buyoot and the plural of bint is banaat. But - and this is where things start getting batsh*t - you have what is known as 'opposite agreement'. This means that if the noun being counted is masculine, you have to use the feminine forms of the numbers, and vice versa for feminine nouns. So ...

    thalaath banaat ... thalaathat buyoot

    arb3 banaat ... arba3at buyoot

    khams banaat ... khamsat buyoot

    sitt banaat ... sittat buyoot

    sab3 banaat ... sab3at buyoot

    thamaani banaat ... thamaaniat buyoot

    tis3 banaat ... tis3at buyoot

    3ashar banaat ... 3asharat buyoot. (the silent ta marboota is pronounced here when counting masculine nouns.)

    From 11 upwards, you use the numeral plus the singular of the noun.

    So, 6 houses is sittat buyoot but 60 houses is sitteen bayt. And, from what I remember, when you ask 'How many ... ?' you also have the noun in the singular: kam bint? - how many girls?

    There is also the question of case endings, used in the 'highest' form of Arabic, e.g. political speeches, scientific conferences, whatever.

    I'll give you one example, one I remember: when asking how many plus masculine noun, you use the singular (as mention directly above) but you also have to add the accusative case ending (-an) onto the noun.

    E.g. - kam kalban? - how many dogs?

    Kam rajulan? - how many men?

    But I'll generally leave case endings out, there's enough craziness in this post already! XD

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    I thought this paper (by my advisor) might be relevant to the thread.

    https://psyarxiv.com/a4tkn/download?format=pdf

    It is quite technical but has to do with how listeners deal with speaker variability, including dialect.

    Abstract

    One of the persistent puzzles in understanding human speech perception is how listeners cope with talker variability. One thing that might help listeners is structure in talker variability: rather than varying randomly, talkers of the same gender, dialect, age, etc. tend to produce language in similar ways. Listeners are sensitive to this covariation between linguistic variation and socio-indexical variables. In this paper I present new techniques based on ideal observer models to quantify 1) the amount and type of structure in talker variation (informativity of a grouping variable), and 2) how useful such structure can be for robust speech recognition in the face of talker variability (the utility of a grouping variable). I demonstrate these techniques in two phonetic domains—word-initial stop voicing and vowel identity—and show that these domains have different amounts and types of talker variability, consistent with previous, impressionistic findings. An R package (phondisttools) accompanies this paper, and the source and data are available from osf.io/zv6e3.
  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    Just thought I'd return to this thread again.

    Last year, I starting learning Scottish Gaelic, for 2 reasons.

    First, I had actually gone to the library intending to continue learning Arabic, but the Arabic learning pack of book + CD was incomplete because some tosser had borrowed the pack but hadn't returned the CD. So, rather than get too upset over this, I decided to just pick another language pack that *did* have the book and CD. I chose Gaelic.

    Second, I have in-laws up in the Highlands, the traditionally Gaelic-speaking areas of Scotland (a' Ghaidhealtachd). I'm a bit of a language geek, so when I visit them, the bilingual road signs always catch my eye. There are names in this weird and wonderful language (Gaelic or Gaidhlig) that 99% of tourists (and, indeed, 99% of Scots) haven't got a clue how to pronounce.

    Of course, all 6 Celtic languages have suffered greatly over the centuries due to the expansion of English and French. So, anybody learning any Celtic language must be a good thing.

    And I'd like to focus on the second reason, that of Gaelic orthography (spelling system), here.

    Seeing written Gaelic is very strange to me, an Englishman. But there *are* spelling rules, the most important of which being leathann ri leathann agus caol ri caol (broad with broad and slender with slender). Gaelic divides a, e, i, o, and u into two groups: 'broad' (a, o, u) and 'slender' (e, i).

    So, the Gaelic word for 'coffee' is cofaidh. It's pronounced much the same as in English but it looks f'ckn weird on the page! XD Well, the 'a' is only there because the 'f' is preceded by a broad vowel (in this case 'o'). So, following the above spelling rule, 'f' must be followed with another broad vowel.

    The 'dh' is preceded by a slender vowel and so is pronounced like the English 'y'. And if you have a 'y' following a short 'i' sound, it kinda gets smushed together, making a long 'ee' sound.

    English has borrowed the Gaelic word ceilidh (meaning a get-together). The plural of ceilidh is ceilidhean ('ceilidhs'? in English). The second 'e' is only there because the 'dh' is preceded by another slender vowel.

    Gaelic looks strange but there is some kind of logic to it. I hope I've explained it fairly clearly.

    BTW I discontinued learning Gaelic because my laptop and head-phones broke down and I guess I felt kinda awkward going to the library and carrying on learning Gaelic in public. I guess it is kinda weird. One of my uni lecturers told me and my student colleagues: 'embrace your inner nerd.' Perhaps I should do this ..

  • snugglebunny
    snugglebunny

    Interesting. My BIL who lives near Dumfries, has also begun to learn Gaelic together with his wife. He gave us a few examples of sentence formation and methods of addressing one another which I found intriguing.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    methods of addressing one another which I found intriguing - yes, this is fascinating.

    I can give a couple of examples right now.

    Here's a Gaelic name: Seumas (James). It's pronounced 'Shey-mas' because 's' is pronounced like English 'sh' when it's either before or after slender consonants. But when you address people in Gaelic, you put the name in the vocative case.

    So, if you want to say hello to Seumas, you'd say: 'hallo, a Sheumais'. The 'S' is lenited, meaning the letter 'h' is written before it. The digraph 'sh' is pronounced like an English 'h', so Sheumais is pronounced like Hamish.

    And to say hello to Padraig, you'd say: 'hallo, a Phadraig', 'ph' being pronounced like English 'f'.

    Sentence formation is also interesting.

    For one thing, the verb usually comes before the subject:

    Tha Seumas agus Morag a' dol a Ghlaschu an-drasda.

    (Seumas and Morag are going to Glasgow now.)

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    So, I'd like to discuss Gaelic further.

    First, the Gaelic numbers and counting system. I mentioned the peculiarities of Arabic numbers previously. Gaelic, too, is bat-shit crazy, although in different ways. Strap yourselves in, ladies and gentlemen, because this is gonna be a fun ride, if nothing else ...

    Gaelic numerals: 1 - 10

    one - aon

    two -

    three - trì

    four - ceithir

    five - còig

    six - sia

    seven - seachd

    eight - ochd

    nine - naoi

    ten - deich

    ^^^ No worries here.

    Here are the numerals 11 - 20 ...

    eleven - aon deug

    twelve - dà dheug

    thirteen - trì deug

    fourteen - ceithir deug

    fifteen - còig deug

    sixteen - sia deug

    seventeen - seachd deug

    eighteen - ochd deug

    nineteen - naoi deug

    twenty - fichead

    ^^^ No worries here also. Deug is clearly a modification of deich. A parallel is found in English ten and -teen.

    After twenty, things are still reasonably ok, from an English-speaking point of view. Twenty-one is aon air fhichead ('one on twenty'), etc., all the way up to 29.

    And now is where things start going a bit crazy. Because the Gaelic counting system isn't decimal (based on tens). Oh no, it's vigesimal (based on twenties).

    So, thirty is deich air fhichead ('ten on twenty'). Thirty-one is aon deug air fhichead ('eleven on twenty'). Thirty-nine is naoi deug air fhichead ('nineteen on twenty'). Forty is dà fhichead ('two twenties'). Forty-three is dà fhichead 's a trì ('two twenties and three').

    Fifty is leth-cheud ('half-hundred'). Sixty is trì fichead ('three twenties'). Seventy is trì fichead 's a deich ('three twenties and ten'). Seventy-one is trì fichead 's a aon deug ('three twenties and eleven'). Eighty is ceithir fichead ('four twenties'). Ninety is ceithir fichead 's a deich ('four twenties and ten'). You get the picture.

    A hundred is ceud and a thousand is mile.

    It's at this point that my mind starts to wonder. It starts to wonder if children living in Gaelic-speaking communities and going to Gaelic-speaking schools underperform at mathematics. A decimal system has been introduced but is not in common use among Gaelic speakers. All Gaelic speakers are bilingual in English. Wouldn't it be easier to teach mathematics in English rather than in Gaelic? That would make sense to me ...

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    I have been called fichead, even before I was 20 ! do you think there is any real advantage to learning (some Gaelic) for me, an infrequent visitor to Ireland and Scotland ?

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    @Phizzy - It depends where in Ireland and Scotland you visit. All Scottish Gaelic (Gaidhlig) speakers are bilingual in English.

    Most Irish Gaelic (Gaeilge) speakers also speak English. There might be one or two elderly Gaelic speakers in Ireland who don't speak English, I'm not sure.

    The areas of Scotland with high concentrations of speakers are the Outer Hebrides, particularly Lewis.

    I'm not sure about which areas of Ireland have high concentrations of speakers, although probably areas in the west of the country would be a good bet.

    Most, if not all, speakers are fluent in English but it would be good to learn a few phrases - even just 'please' and 'thank you' - if you go to a Gaelic-speaking area.

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