A Bible contradiction?

by uncle_onion 42 Replies latest jw friends

  • bigboi
    bigboi

    Hey JanH;

    Actually i did read the account before I posted. However I'm not really into getting into philosophical debates about religion and things that happened thousands of yrs ago. That is in fact one of the major reasons why I stopped being a witness. I was justtired of debating beliefs and opinions with ppl. Your analysis of the account is in fact an opinion that depends much upon the perspective from which you view it.

    For instance after David leaves Jonathan at the end of chapter 20, the very first verse says that "later" David came into Nob to Ahimelech the priest. How much "later" is later? I mean we could argue about this all day but who knows what happened in between David's encounter with Jonathan and his appearance in Nob?

    David then tells him that he has made an appointment with the young men for such and such a place. Which in itself is an extremely vague statement. However it seems implausible to me that Daivd in the time since his last rejection by Saul had not made some sort of arrangement for his escape and this may have included others being with him as a means of prtection. However this is just my opinion. It's what i gather when I read the account. It says again at "lngth he came Achish the king of gath". How long was he there? I don't know? Do you? Then let me know. Given that how can you say that Jesus' rendering of the text is false or sloppy when so much of it is obviously left to the perspective of the reader?

    Again even in our reasoning about Jesus' application of the text we differ. Jesus in my opinion was arguing against the unjust rules the pharisees put upon the common people regarding the sabbath. David when in need was allowed to eat something that technically wasn't proscribed for him to. It actually was a breaking of the law that was tolerated due to the circumstances. Therefore how much more should the plucking of the disciples on the sabbath be tolerated, since they were breaking no part of the law of Moses, but only a law put forth by the Pharisees themselves.

    "..... anyone who ignores everyday reality in order to live up to an ideal will soon discover he had been taught how to destroy himself, not how to preserve himself." The Prince. Niccolo Machiavelli.

  • Scorpion
    Scorpion

    I find it amusing when those who try to prove inaccuracies in the Bible, know only certain details of the text and the history behind it.

    I have several sites bookmarked explaining what the author believes to be hundreds of contradictions and inaccuracies in the Bible, only to find out through a little research that the author has failed to do his homework completely.

    I do believe there are scribal errors as well as a few contradictions in the Bible. There are also Bibles written with a bias towards a certain belief system. The New World Translation is one.

    Before anyone takes the word of the sceptics as fact, it would be advisable to get informed as to the context of the subjects mentioned when one tries to prove inaccuracies in the Bible.

    I have several sites bookmarked debunking many of these alleged contradictions. Instead of bombarding you with tons of sites defending the Bible, which I find some as inaccurate as the many trying to disprove the Bible, I will leave you with just one.

    >> http://www.bbie.org/WrestedScripture/DD2Contradictions/Contradictions.html

  • Scorpion
  • JanH
    JanH

    My oh my, Bigboi,

    Are you really serious? I have a problem contemplating anyone being both able to enter a discussion board and yet totally inept at reading and understanding a simple narrative in a book.

    Your reference to "opinion" is just pathetic handwaving. Do you seriously mean that anyone's opinion is just as valid as anybody elses? That it is impossible to attain any form of knowledge? That would be the logical consequence of your ridiculous statements. Of course you don't mean that. It is just a self-serving excuse for having to face facts that are too inconvenient. A sad case of self-deception.

    Fact: Jesus got names wrong. He got events wrong. For example: He said David and the men with him entered the House of God. And in fact, David did not enter it. And no "men" were with him; as the author of 1 Samuel goes to great pains explaining.

    Answer this, Bigboi: Did or did not David and his men enter the "House of God" in the story as told in 1 Samuel? Yes or no.

    About when these men met David is a massive red herring. Jesus referred to what was written this is a story. A narrative. It conveys information. The information Jesus in Mark conveyed is incompatible with what the story in 1 Samuel says.

    I find it laughable that twobit apologists like Scorpion, who can't even post an URL in two attempts, claim being able to "explain" anything, and then do not dare to touch the argument itself. I started this by saying it is a typical endeavour of fundie apologists to claim that someone, somewhere, can "explain" all these things. Of course, they make no attemot to tell us where, when and how. They live in a happy ignorant bliss of wishful thinking, just like those JWs who are totally convinced that someone in the Society surely can explain their wacky doctrines, but are unwilling to actually look at this "explanation."

    Your form of "argument" is intellectually vacouus and dishonest to the extreme. I posted a careful analysis of the text itself. None of you have made any attempts to deal with the arguments honestly.

    - Jan
    --
    Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    JanH,

    Is it possible that our past with the WTS is harder to shed than we think? I always hated it when Fredie Franz would pick a VS apart and try to establish a doctrine on a technicality. Are we slipping into the same Pharisaical tactics? What is the spirit of what is said? That’s good enough for me.

    Yes, it’s OK with me if we could find and prove such technical flaws. If we put anyone or anything under close scrutiny you will find flaws, some real and others explainable. It is the mentality I am trying to put behind me that demands absolutely conformity to technical factuality, scrutinizing every detail of a matter for some sensational significance.

    Whatever Jesus said, it did not get an overwhelming jeer from his audience. And I suspect his audience was at least as skeptical as the readers on this discussion board. Was the record of the event slanted to favor Jesus? Who knows! I’m just looking for the POINT. I like the point Jesus was making, and I wont take that moment of good teaching away on a presumed technical flaw. It is organized religion that implies or tells us the Bible is the perfect and flawless word of God. I believe it is God’s communication with man giving us at least the thoughts he wanted to convey. I’m not in favor of tainting that with the legalistic and critical approach that we found distasteful in the Borg.
    Jst2laws

  • rem
    rem

    Scorpion,

    That site has to be one of the most intellectually dishonest site's I've seen in a long time. After looking at the Contradictions page (which I thought was just one big strawman), I browsed over to the Carbon-14 Dating page and the Evolution page. Disgusting! It was so full of innacuracies and misconceptions I thought my head was going to explode. Be sure to check all of the "references" from the 1960's. Laughable!

    This is definitely not the type of site I would want defending my religion. But then again, I don't know of any other way to defend the Christian religion without resorting to dishonest tactics.

    rem

  • JanH
    JanH

    jst2laws,

    I cannot but say it is an amazing display of intellectual dishonesty to call it a "technicality", when the whole point of Jesus' statement was that David entered the House of God, and in fact he did not! As you can see in my commentary, Jesus screwed up practically every possible detail in the story. Names, numbers, events, what happened, everything. Ok, David was there, and there was a priest. Oh, even that was wrong, 'cause Jesus said high priest. Bummer!

    I guess when choosing that word, bigboi scored a good rhetorical point with people who desperately grasp for straws.

    Whatever Jesus said, it did not get an overwhelming jeer from his audience. And I suspect his audience was at least as skeptical as the readers on this discussion board.

    I really laughed out loud reading this. Is it possible to know so little about history? We're talking a simple, backwards group of followers of a religious conman, and this was 2000 years ago! Those were the mest credulous of the credulous, in a world full of superstition.

    And yet, hardly any of them believed Jesus. Perhaps that should tell you something? Only people far distant in time and space started to believe those fantasy stories about a magic-worker in Palestine who also happened to be the Son of God.

    - Jan
    --
    Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    jst2laws, y'know what? Borg Schmorg.

    The more I look back with happy, clear lenses, the more I see the Bible as the problem. The "borg", evil though it may have become, came into existance from sincere people trying to believe that the Bible is Gods word; therefore, it must makes sense. If Jesus was not the perfect son of God on earth, that is what needs to be determined before one goes off debating just where a person should draw the lines in regards to a figurative vs. a literal interpretation of the bible.

    The question remains on the table; is there any reason, any reason at all, besides common desire, for the bible to be considered the inspired word of God?

    Questions, comments, cheers or jeers?

  • Jang
    Jang

    Regarding the Time of Jesus Birth ...

    From Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe's "When Critics Ask:"
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    LUKE 2:1 - Did Luke make a mistake when he mentioned a worldwide census under Caesar Augustus?

    PROBLEM: Luke refers to a worldwide census under Caesar Augustus when Quirinius was governor of Syria. However, ccording to the annals of ancient history, no such census took place.

    SOLUTION: Until recently, it has been widely held by critics that Luke made an error in his assertion about a registration under Caesar Augustus, and that the census actually took place in A.D. 6 or 7, (that is mentioned by Luke in Gamaliel's speech recorded in Acts 5:37). The lack of any extra-biblical support has led some to claim this is an error. However, recent scholarship has reversed this trend, and it is now widely admitted that there was in fact an earlier registration as Luke records. This has been asserted on the basis of several factors.

    First of all, since the people of a subjugated land were compelled to take an oath of allegiance to the emperor, it was not unusual for the emperor to require an imperial census as an expression of this allegiance and as a means of enlisting men for military service, or, as was probably true in this case, in preparation to levy taxes. Because of the strained relations between Herod and Augustus in the later years of Herod's reign, as the Jewish historian Josephus reports, it is understandable that Augustus would begin to treat Herod's domain as a subject land, and consequently would impose such a census to maintain control of Herod and the people.

    Second, periodic registrations of this sort took place on a regular basis every 14 years. According to the very papers that recorded the censuses, (see W.M. Ramsey, Was Christ Born in Bethlehem? 1898), there was in fact a census taken in about 8 or 7 B.C. Because of this regular pattern of census taking, any such action would naturally be regarded as a result of the general policy of Augustus, even though a local census may have been instigated by a local governor. Therefore, Luke recognizes the census as stemming from the decree of Augustus.

    Third, a census was a massive project which probably took several years to complete. Such a census for the purpose of taxation was begun in Gaul between 10-9 B.C. that took a period of 40 years to complete. It is quite likely that the decree to begin the census, in about 8 or 7 B.C., may not have actually begun in Palestine until some time later. Problems of organization and preparation may have delayed the actual census until 5 B.C. or even later.

    Fourth, it was not an unusual requirement that people return to the place of their origin, or to the place where they owned property. A decree of C. Vibius Mazimus in A.D. 104 required all those who were away from their home towns to return there for the purpose of the census. For the Jews, such travel would not have been unusual at all since they were quite used to the annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem. There is simply no reason to suspect Luke's statement regarding the census at the time of Jesus' birth. Luke's account fits the regular pattern of census taking, and its date would not be an unreasonable one. Also, this may have been simply a local census that was taken as a result of the general policy of Augustus. Luke simply provides us with a reliable historical record of an event not otherwise recorded. Since Dr. Luke has proven himself to be a reliable historian in other matters (see Sir William Ramsey, St. Paul the Traveler and Roman Citizen, 1896), there is no reason to doubt him here (see also comments on Luke 2:2).

    LUKE 2:2 - Why does Luke say the census was during Quirinius' governorship since Quirinius was not governor until A.D. 6

    PROBLEM: Luke states that the census decreed by Augustus was the first one taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. However, Quirinius did not become governor of Syria until after the death of Herod in about A.D. 6. Is this an error in Luke's historical record?

    SOLUTION: Luke has not made an error. There are reasonable solutions to this difficulty.

    First, Quintilius Varus was governor of Syria from about 7 B.C. to about 4 B.C. Varus was not a trustworthy leader, a fact that was disastrously demonstrated in A.D. 9 when he lost three legions of soldiers in the Teutoburger forest in Germany. To the contrary, Quirinius was a notable military leader who was responsible for squelching the rebellion of the Homonadensians in Asia Minor. When it came time to begin the census, in about 8 or 7 B.C., Augustus entrusted Quirinius with the delicate problem in the volatile area of Palestine, effectively superseding the authority and governorship of Varus by appointing Quirinius to a place of special authority in this matter.

    It has also been proposed that Quirinius was governor of Syria on two separate occasions, once while prosecuting the military action against the Homonadensians between 12 and 2 B.C., and later beginning about A.D. 6. A Latin inscription discovered in 1764 has been interpreted to refer to Quirinius as having served as governor of Syria on two occasions.

    It is possible that Luke 2:2 reads, "This census took place before Quirinius was governing Syria." In this case, the Greek word translated "first" (protos) is translated as a comparative, "before." Because of the awkward construction of the sentence, this is not an unlikely reading.

    Regardless of which solution is accepted, it is not necessary to conclude that Luke has made an error in recording the historical events surrounding the birth of Jesus. Luke has proven himself to be a reliable historian even in the details. Sir William Ramsey, has shown that in making reference to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands he made no mistakes!

    JanG

  • rem
    rem

    I guess any contradiction can be explained away with unbridled speculation. As far as Luke's accuracy, I assert that he made at least one mistake for every miracle that he reported.

    rem

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