Christians made me stop believing in the Bible

by jws 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  jws

  I'm agnostic. There could be a god, but I don't believe it's the god described in the bible.
  
  I grew up a JW believing in the bible. After I left, I didn't want religion but was determined to be a christian on my own.

  But things started to unravel. I saw where science was observing evolution in the lab. And also knowing of links in our DNA that can show links between species. So I accepted evolution does and did happen. And maybe that *can* harmonize with the Bible in that God created many species, but they all evolved over time.

  But one of the things that started to unravel it all was the flood. It didn't make sense. I remember reading once that the words used could be interpreted to mean that an area flooded, not the whole earth. Which made more sense and solved a LOT of problems. Noah could have rescued only local animals. No wondering how kangaroos got to/from Australia, more space aboard, more time to feed animals, plant life could survive because the whole earth wasn't under water, etc. It solved a LOT of issues.
  
  In other words, I went through a looser interpretation of the bible to try to make it mesh with reality. Kind of like the JWs did with "creative days" being longer than 24 hours. And I allowed for slight changes by scribes through the years.
  
  So I could find a way to allow for science and still believe in a looser interpretation of the bible.
  
  But, it was Christians who forced the issue. Especially a long time friend of almost 40 years who used to be a JW with me. These people were having none of this. When facts and the bible differed, the bible was always right. No matter what the evidence, the flimsy bible stories were right.
  
  My friend argued against evolution, but now seems to allow for "kinds" which are a form of evolution too, BTW. And believes the only flood interpretation is the whole earth was flooded and everything sensational required to make it work was god's magic. And after being a JW and believing in long creation days was back to 24-hour days.

  There was no give, no allowance, no trying to meet reality half way. It was either scientific knowledge or a bunch of ancient books we don't even have originals of. I felt forced to make a decision and it didn't end well for the Bible.

  And then after deciding that the Bible wasn't inspired by god, I started to see other things that just plain didn't make sense. Like most of Genesis and Exodus. And all of the horrible laws that didn't make sense.

  If god is all powerful, why did he have to kick Adam and Eve out of the garden to keep them from eating of the tree of life so that they could live forever? If God wanted them to die, couldn't he just kill them? I thought he was all powerful. Or negate the properties of the tree of life? Or make the tree of life vanish? SO many things that started to sound more like fairy tales once I took the religious blinders off.

  But if my good friend had compromised and said you're right, maybe the flood was local, I might still be a christian. Or at least would have stayed one longer. But by insisting it's all true and literal, well, that doesn't make sense. He made me choose one or the other when I was trying to harmonize them. I picked science and reality.
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  baker

  Ask your friend to explain Judges chapter 19, and for what reason this was even included in the bible. Its a horrible story that no one can take on, even the concordance.
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  nicolaou

  Good post. You've told the story of many of us who moved from faith to reality. It doesn't happen by flicking a switch, there are stages.
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  anointed1

  I too had problems with understanding Noah's flood. How did Noah load over 8.7 millions species (some as pairs and others as pairs of seven) into such a small ark, in such short span of seven days? Seven days would mean 604800 seconds. That means in one second, how many species did they load?

  Other things I could not digest was: Joshua could stop the sun, a star could come and stay over the house where Jesus was born ...
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  jws

  annointed1 wrote:

  a star could come and stay over the house where Jesus was born

  Well, not sure if it was my parents or speakers from the podium who talked about this. But, that star was supposedly associated with the astrologers and we know JWs regard astrology as a Satanic thing. Therefore, according to them, that star wasn't really a star, it was Satan or a demon leading people to find Jesus. Probably in hopes his whereabouts could be known and he'd be killed.
  
  
  The flood didn't make sense. But I found a way to compromise and help it make sense, but was shot down by the religious and I decided if a modified version of the tale wasn't available to me, then it must not have happened at all. Because it didn't make sense. And it's the Christians who forced me into that choice and started me on that journey.
  
  And then it evolved into other topics after I started to read the bible critically. When I did, it didn't take long to see flaws. I got to the second verse and went "WAIT A MINUTE"! How can god's spirit be moving across waters when there's no heat source yet? In the absolute 0 of space, it would be ice fields, not water. And it got worse from there. Order of creation, a snake that told the truth but was somehow the bad guy, snakes forced to eat dust, to the many, many, other stories that sounded so stupid.
  
  But it all started with the "this is the literal word of god and is absolutely true" thinking I was being told. If you can at least say "well, these were stories that men wrote based on things god did", then there's leeway. You can say, yes, there is a god. But the bible was basically just fan-boy fiction "based on" true stories. So there are truths in there, but it's not all true. Then it's a little easier to swallow. And, to me, I think you could still believe in God even if you know some of the tales are embellished. But, if you're going to tell me this is all 100% true? Sorry. Between the choice of all or nothing, I have to go with nothing.

  And believers telling me it's all literal isn't true either. Believers often rationalize too. Whenever it's a real stretch, then it's "figurative". But not their beloved fairy tales like creation, the flood, the sun stopping, or the other things that make for a good story.
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  Heaven

  jws, now, I think I see your problem here. You are being Intellectually Honest. This is a trait that believers must abandon in order to remain 'faithful'. There is no room for logic, reason, truth, or facts in a faith based system.

  Growing up as a JW, I had issues with many things not only within the JW religion, but other religions too and the Bible itself. Theodicy was a big one and the misogyny. I was born with a logical mind. So much didn't add up for me including a lot of things having to do with math (eg: JWs claimed to be preaching to all the inhabited Earth. This is false. The math just doesn't add up).

  Many Christians I have spoken to, haven't even read the Bible. When you point out some of the nasty scriptures to them, they are shocked (like Judges 19 as baker referenced). They have been maneuvered through the Bible by their religious authorities, who are using the Bible to prop up a religious agenda.

  Christians like their blanket of comfort. But when you start asking them questions, they give 'fall back' answers including "you're taking that out of context" and the final one "I'll pray for you". One Christian I was talking to couldn't answer my questions about the order of Creation in Genesis and told me I was taking it out of context. When I asked them to explain how I was doing that, they could not.

  Our knowledge has far surpassed the need for Bronze and Iron Age Middle Eastern desert dwellers' superstitions to define our world. What I like about Science is, if you choose not to believe what they are saying, they don't, upon your death, threaten to judge you, and if found unworthy, torture you for all eternity in a burning lake of fire.
  
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  Socrateswannabe

  Long ago I concluded that the bible is a book of (bad) fairy tales. Now I marvel at the staying power that these ridiculous and harmful stories have had in the judeo/christian tradition. What modern people still believes greek mythology as truth? No one. But the flood, adam and eve, miracles of the prophets, jesus...all of these are taken at face value by millions of people. Puzzling.
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  Spiral

  Here's an excellent read: The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. He lays all of these arguments out (along with so many more) in such a way you can't understand why anyone would believe it - but then he explains theories about why they do. Fascinating!
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  jws

  And the weird part was, as a believer, my friend allows himself to believe in any cockamamie idea that comes along to try to justify his believe, so long as he could base it on the things the bible says.

  Obviously dinosaurs present a problem. They're measured to be millions of years old. And some were meat-eaters (obviously) - a no-no before the flood.

  So then (and I'm thinking it wasn't him - it was an idea he borrowed), he comes along with this idea that at the beginning of Genesis, where it says the earth was without form, a better interpretation was that it "became without form". In other words it's like god erasing the chalkboard. Dinosaurs were part of a previous creation that didn't work so god decided to start over and that's where the bible begins. Kind of like the Noah story without Noah or anybody to save. This time he did wipe out everything.

  OK, I'll allow him that the wording *may* really mean "became without form". Who knows?

  So, what you're saying is god keeps F'ing up? He keeps creating things then finding fault with them and wiping them out? And who knows how many times he hit the reset button? Which means god's got some flaws. He isn't a super-intelligent being that can perfectly plan everything. Was it a "test run"? God needs test runs? He isn't perfect the first time?

  And then the other question. The universe. ALL of the vast amounts of stars and planets. The earth is like one atom in your body. But stars and planets weren't created until day 4 after the Earth reset. Why? Surely any previous life needed at the very least, the sun. Couldn't you keep that there? After big hail storms, my roof (shingling) needed to be torn off and replaced. I didn't have the whole house demolished if only the roof needs replacing.
  
  Even if you were going to wipe the earth clean, why would you make the sun vanish so you had to create it again?

  So you're allowed to come up with that nonsense? But I can't say maybe Noah is a tall tale about a local flood?

  I think he's given up on his "became without form" theory and is back to the earth was created in 6 24-hour days because that's what his Christian friends all believe. And after I brought up some of those issues, I think he re-thought them.

  He also believes the internet hoaxes with doctored photos of giant skulls, thinking they're proof of the nephelim. And not only that. That the Illuminati are trying to bring them back. And that every biologically bad thing in the world was Satan manipulating their DNA. Like poisonous plants, diseases, etc.

  Really, I consider the guy a smart guy in many respects. There's a very technical side to him that really understands technology. And he's generally a nice, caring guy. But when it comes to religion, he's afraid to really look at it. He prefers to hear the ravings of any lunatic who can spin a tale to fit the pieces together, no matter how absurd. It's like he needs to believe it so badly, he's too afraid to even let his mind entertain the idea that a single biblical writing could be wrong.
  
  And he, more than anybody is the one Christian who pushed me away from Christianity.
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  Spiral

  "Heaven: Growing up as a JW, I had issues with many things not only within the JW religion, but other religions too and the Bible itself. Theodicy was a big one and the misogyny. I was born with a logical mind. So much didn't add up for me including a lot of things having to do with math (eg: JWs claimed to be preaching to all the inhabited Earth. This is false. The math just doesn't add up)."

  
  

  @Heaven: I used to wonder the same thing as a kid! Still do, if you think about it, the whole preaching to the entire earth is really just chasing your tail (mathmatically) because the longer you wait for "the end" the more people there are to preach too. You could never catch up.

  @JWS: I so relate to all of what you are saying. I have gone through the same thought process and now I am an athiest. I am reading (very carefully) the book I mentioned in my previous post (The God Delusion). Wow! All those doubts we all had have a real logical basis. Once you're not willing to believe what other people (who just want to control you) believe, it's a weight off your back. At least, that's how I feel about it.