144,000 v. Great Crowd Verses

by Ding 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Ding

  We know that the WT claims all sorts of distinctions between the "anointed" 144,000 and the great crowd. For example:

  -- The "heaven" verses apply only to the 144,000; the "earth" verses apply only to the great crowd

  -- "Unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man..." applies only to the 144,000, etc.

  In fact, when you show JWs some passage the WT doesn't follow, they often say, "Oh, that only applies to the 144,000."

  It occurs to me that it might be an interesting project to ask a JW to take 3 different color highlighters and go through any book of the New Testament marking in red the passages the WT says apply only to the 144,000, in blue the passages the WT says apply only to the great crowd, and in yellow the passages the WT says apply to both.

  If they tried it, I wonder how long it would take before they realized how many of the WT's teachings in this regard are a construct of the WT which has no basis at all in the text.
  
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  truth_b_known

  Interesting.

  Have you made a list yourself and be willing to share?
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  eyeuse2badub

  All that's really needed is for a jw to compare Rev 7:9 to Rev. 19:1, 6

  Rev. 7:9, according to the wt, applies to a great crowd on earth!

  vs 9  After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

  Rev. 19: 1 and 6, according to the wt, apply to a great crowd in heaven?

  19 vs 1 After this I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God,

  vs 6  And I heard what sounded like a voice of a great crowd and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of heavy thunders.

  Too many great crowds I guess!just saying!
  
  
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  steve2

  A doctrine is on thin ice when its chief argument (144,000 is a literal number) is found in the most symbol-ridden book in the Bible canon. No other book in the Bible explicitly mentions the 144,000. You are asking for trouble if you go to a symbol-ridden book to defend your literal doctrine.

  Like the 1914 doctrine, the 144,000 doctrine is premised on a series of hop-scotch jumps over several other isolated Bible verses and a great deal of “reasonings” that make sense only to those who already accept the JW organization view.
• 

  Ding

  @truth_b_known,

  I haven't done this marking up myself.

  You probably wouldn't be able to tell what the WT would say about most verses, which is the real point you'd be trying to get across to JWs.

  @steve2

  What's crazy to me is that 144,000 is supposed to be literal but each of the 12 12,000s that comprise it are supposedly symbolic, although the WT doesn't say what they supposedly symbolize.

  Interestingly, in The Finished Mystery (1917), the WT detailed character traits each of those tribes of 12,000 are supposed to symbolize.

  I've never heard of that being taught elsewhere by the WT.

  Certainly, they abandoned that "old light" a long time ago.

  BTW, The Finished Mystery taught that there were 4 classes, not 2.

  The Great Crowd was a heavenly class that was inferior to the 144,000.

  Supposedly the Great Crowd were going to be servants rather than rulers because they were wicked and slothful servants!

  The Finished Mystery is a marvelous compendium of WT nonsense which the organization has long since abandoned.
  
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  Vanderhoven7

  One of the unique teachings of the Watchtower Society is that the Bible distinguishes between two types of Christians; the anointed and the non-anointed. The Society claims substantial privileged information about these two classes of Christians including the following:

  Re: The 144,000 Anointed Class
  
  1. Only about 100,000 people ended up being saved by Jesus Christ, from the first century till the start of the 20th century. These were all spiritual Israelites.
  
  2. There are roughly 18,000 members left of this group still living on earth today. Because they are associated with the Watchtower, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses can and does keep statistics on the number remaining.
  
  3. For over 70 years (until 2007) the 144,000 class were said to be numerically complete in 1935. So prior to 2007 there was only room for someone to join this group if one of the existing spiritual Israelites apostatized.
  
  4. All members of this group who had died prior to the 20th century, went to heaven in October of 1918....including the apostle Paul.
  
  

  5. Every member of the 144,000 class who died since 1918, joined them in heaven at death.

  Re: The “Other Sheep” Class (John

  1. They began being called in the 20th century.

  2. They are not saints of God,

  3. They do not have Christ’s righteousness imputed to them

  4. They are not justified before God, so their hope is to be raised in the resurrection of the unjust.

  5. They cannot claim Christ as personal mediator

  6. They are not part of the New Covenant arrangement.

  7. They are not entitled to partake of the emblems of Christ's death

  8. They do not have a heavenly hope

  9. They are not Spirit Begotten Son's of God

  10. They need to be affiliated with the Watchtower organization to be saved from destruction at Armageddon.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  "Does the Great Company receive life direct from God on the Spirit plane? Answer - Yes, they receive life direct in that they have been begotten of the Holy Spirit, and when they are begotten they are just the same way as the little flock, because we are called in the one hope of our calling....They therefore receive life on a spirit plane." Pastor Russel 1st President, and Founder of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (What Pastor Russel Said p.297)

  - What about this author?

  "Ezekiel was given a vision of a great and marvelous temple. That vision of Ezekiel concerning the temple has been a mystery for ages and generations, but now is due to be understood. The Scriptures and the physical facts both show that this prophecy was not due to be understood by God's people on earth until the year 1932. ...This picture shows the position of the great multitude. Ever and anon someone advances the conclusion that the great multitude will not be a spiritual class. The prophecy of Ezekiel shows that such conclusion is erroneous. The fact that their position is seven steps higher than the outside shows that they must be made spirit creatures."

  J. F. Rutherford, 2nd president Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (Vindication -book III p 204)

  "Jehovah never makes any mistakes. Where the student relies upon man, he is certain to be led into difficulties. J. F. Rutherford (Prophecy pp.67,68)

  - Were Jehovah's Witnesses relying on man?

  - Was the prophesy, that was not really understood until 1932,

  wrong in 1935? (This is when Rutherford changed his mind

  about the destiny of the "Great Crowd".)

  "Men not only contradict God, they contradict one another. How can they be reliable guides..."

  (Awake, Mar. 22,63)

  NOTE: For confirmation that the "Great Crowd" was actually considered a "spirit begotten", heaven bound class, you can invite your visitors to examine a copy of page 51 of the Watchtower, 2/15/1918 which states:

  "...the great company class, born on the spirit plane,

  who are to be servants before the throne, like unto the

  angels...No one could be either of the little flock or

  of the great company class unless he is spirit-begotten."
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  stan livedeath

  does any other religion hold the same idea ? 144,000 to go to heaven--the rest on earth ?
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  Vanderhoven7

  To my knowledge there is no other Bible believing group that limits the heaven bound to 144,000 literal individuals.
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  steve2

  I think you are correct Vanderhoven7. The so-called breakaway groups from Russell's day and dying preceded Rutherford's limiting of heaven to 144,000; Russell's view appears to have been that the 144,000 was a symbolic number. So, yes, JW organization alone treats the 144,000 as a literal number.

  It's either incredibly daring or stupid (or both) to base a major teaching about the afterlife on a heavily symbolic book of the Bible.