Question for SBF

by Fisherman 192 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Drearyweather
    Drearyweather

    In 1914, 1917-18 and 1925, WT faced crisis due to doctrinal reasons and power struggles, with more than half of the WT HQ directors purged, many prominent and true believers leaving the fold, branch office managers becoming apostate, etc. However, as said above, they had their business and money to fall back on. They survived that debacle because of money and not because of their members.

    Now, WT may have problems with money, but they have a core group of believers who will not leave no matter what. No high level defections have happened in the recent decades. Normal JW's are not dependent on the WT for their daily financial and family needs. Hence, even if the WT stops printing and publishing altogether, publishers will still go on preaching as usual with whatever they have and whatever WT gives them. JW's dont have any problems whatsoever to simply go to the door and ask the householder to download things from jw.org.

    So the WT is doing what any organization will do. If they have stopped their publishing business, it makes no sense in having huge printeries and printery staff. Cut back and downsizing is the best way. But all of this would not make much difference to a normal JW. It is just the matter of changing his presentation style during his field service. Instead of a physical book, he will have to show things from his tablet or smart phone. Most JW's have already transitioned to this style of witnessing.

  • _Morpheus
    _Morpheus

    Now now slim, lets read what i actually said and not what you want me to have to said...

    i never said the org was A OK. I 100% admitted that they had finical problems and had to retool and revamp the operation.

    Quote me where i said otherwise.

    What i did say was they are not in imminent danger of collapse as you have said over and over.

    Lets simplify this... Your whole argument is based on the premise that they no longer sell books or mags and therefore cannot make money anymore. You have said it a dozen times and we get it.

    HOWEVER your completely wrong. The wt never its money from selling publications. Never. Its always made its money selling hope and dreams of panda petting paradise to people. Books were just the vehicle to do that. As long as people are buying pipe dreams the wt will ALWAYS survive in the same way every other religion has survived, religions that oh by the way NEVER sold books to begin with. Hell most religions have sold nothing since their inception and done very well.

    The org will simply find new ways to separate the sheep from their money as every other religion always has and will have an easier time than most since its a high control cult. Why you are so blind to this i can only assume is your personal wind mill tilt and thats fine, but im not buying that particular brand of crazy today.

  • notsurewheretogo
    notsurewheretogo

    As I keep saying every publishing company is doing what the WT is doing...the cost of ink, paper, printing facilities now is far higher than it has ever been and therefore the WT are simply cutting costs.

    Warwick was to cost $200 million when it was being planned...they sell the NY property for $1 billion. They cut a lot of costs already and will continue to do so until they are the point they can live with what is coming in.

    I think SBF's opening post is very good but still can't see them demise because of money issues...they will address these at some point.

    But they are on a gradual decline and in 20 years+ will have major issues...not money perse but doctrines...but again I expect them to change that too.

    Religion is a lot like a sports team...no matter how poor your sports team is you stick with them...ditto for a religion.

    Slow long decline yes...but they won't go bust because of a lack of money...they will evolve and adapt to survive that IMO.

    1914 and the anointed/overlapping generation will be huge hurdles to overcome.

  • oppostate
    oppostate
    • @notsure...

      "1914 and the anointed/overlapping generation will be huge hurdles to overcome."

      One would think so, yet the b0rg drones on.

      They have morphed before and will likely do so again.

      They come up with a new fly for the fish hook every generation.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Morpheus, sorry, what variety of nonsense is this now? Watchtower never made much money from publishing in the first place? Good grief. Are you serious? Do I really need to prove this? Here goes.

    Watchtower made a ton of money from selling magazines and books (which included pictures of pandas and paradise of course, but it was the book sales that made the money). That's why they didn't tithe their membership or pass collections round the KH. They didn't need to because they made a healthy profit from book and magazine sales. Their lack of collections was a unique selling point they could afford to advertise, precisely because they made enough money from print sales that they didn't need to beg for more.

    How do we know? Inside testimony for a start. Another poster quoted a bethel insider who said Watchtower was making millions of dollars a week from magazine sales. Very realistic when you consider the cover price, the circulation numbers, and the low cost of production. How else do we know? Well just look at their activity, it tells you all you need to know. The 1970/80s was the all time boom in WT sales (I'm going to cover this in part 2). Just look at the increase in circulation of the magazines, and the number of books they were promoting in this period. Good quality hardback books: Aid book, Kingdom Interlinear, Insight Books, Revelation book, Live forever book (in small and large size), creation book (ditto), reference Bible, Byington's Bible(!), concordance, Proclaimers book. You name it, they were pumping out good quality books like there was no tomorrow! (In a sense true, because of the "generation" teaching) On top of that they branched out into audiocassettes, videos, calendars, daily text, Braille, and goodness knows what else. Business was absolutely booming and they couldn't release their products fast enough.

    Then what happens? In 1990 they stopped charging for the literature and we have seen steady decline ever since. First to go were the hardcover books, replaced by very flimsy paperbacks, calendars gone, concordance gone, Kingdom Interlinear gone, Insight books gone, Byinton Bible gone, magazines cut in size, reduced in frequency. Now we are at the point where they are not even releasing paperback books at the convention any more, but instead telling members to download. Now they are even at the point of reducing language editions of the WT.

    Also the history of Watchtower magazine subscription is very instructive. For most of its history Watchtower signed up people for annual subscriptions to the magazine. It's easy to forget now but that was one of the major objectives of the ministry, to get new subscribers. What happened after 1990 when the cover price was dropped? They stopped inviting subscription! In fact pretty soon they phased out subscriptions altogether. Which makes perfect sense when you think about it. If you are making a profit you want as many subscribers as you can possibly get. But if you can't charge for the magazines any more then subscribers who pay little or nothing is the last thing you want!

    The reason they produced tons of literature in the 1980s was because it was profitable for them. And the reason they have cut back printing so drastically since then is because it is no longer profitable and is in fact a financial drain. This is so self-evidently the situation that I didn't think it needed to be spelled out.

    Watchtower themselves had the naive belief in 1990 that when they stopped charging for the literature the brothers would contribute the same anyway. They were wrong, as their activity since then demonstrates. You are making the same mistake they made when you claim it's not books and magazines, but "hope and a dream" they were selling. In turns out the brothers were paying mainly for the magazines and books, but the message they took as "life's water free" like the old kingdom song says!

    Which puts Watchtower in a real tight situation. They told their membership for over 140 years that they would never beg for money. They didn't need to beg for money because they had a healthy income from print sales. But now those sales have dried up. In fact worse than dried up because instead of making a profit their publishing is now a loss making activity. So what do they do now? That's the question.

  • _Morpheus
    _Morpheus

    Im just going to start quoting myself until you address the point i (and others) are making:

    Its always made its money selling hope and dreams of panda petting paradise to people. Books were just the vehicle to do that. As long as people are buying pipe dreams the wt will ALWAYS survive in the same way every other religion has survived, religions that oh by the way NEVER sold books to begin with. Hell most religions have sold nothing since their inception and done very well.”

  • Finally Left
    Finally Left

    When the accounts are read and you hear how much money is going to the worldwide work it is very little. When we were going only $200-$300.00 per month. I always thought that was strange. The friends are not contributing. Let's face it a car payment can easily be more than a couple hundred dollars and that is all that is put into the contribution box each month.

    We own a very small business yet it takes a lot of money and you can go through money quickly with business expenses. It doesn't take long. Lett said more is going out than coming in, and obviously he is right. They wouldn't be having the cutbacks they are having if they had enough money. My two cents worth, they are going down and I can't wait!

  • sparky1
    sparky1

    _Morpheus, it seems that you and I are in the minority when it comes to more rational thoughts on this topic. It is interesting to me that this discussion has spilled over into 3 separate topics. It shows that a lot of people have strong opinions and slimboyfat seems to back up his contentions with facts. I wish to examine one of his contentions with a fact:

    "Another poster quoted a bethel insider who said Watchtower was making millions of dollars a week from magazine sales. Very realistic when you consider the cover price, the circulation numbers, and the low cost of production. ......... The 1970/80's was the all time boom in Watchtower sales." - slimboyfat

    FACT: Lets take slimboys claim that in the 70/80's, millions of dollars a week were made on magazine sales. I decided to look at the figures for 1980 which would put us right smack in the middle (time wise) for his claim:

    January 1, 1980 Watchtower magazine had a production of 8,750,000 units.

    The inside cover list a price of .10 or ten cents American.

    8,750,000 X .10 = $875,000.00 ( A far cry from his stated MILLIONS!)

    And that is gross receipts not including cost of production!

    I have said it before and I will say it again. You (slimboyfat) are WRONG and you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

    Need I go on?

  • shepherdless
    shepherdless
    Its always made its money selling hope and dreams of panda petting paradise to people. Books were just the vehicle to do that.

    For most of its history, it made the bulk of its money selling magazines (and in the early days, books) to members of the public, not so much its own members. I think one of the Studies in The Scriptures books was the third highest selling book of all time, at one stage long ago (the bible holding the no 1 spot).

    Hell most religions have sold nothing since their inception and have done very well.

    Other religions tithe. If you count elders as clergy, Watchtower has a much higher ratio of clergy to adherents than other religions. Other religions do have businesses. SDA has food companies, nursing homes, a University, and goodness knows what else. Catholics have huge property portfolios, schools, hospitals, hospices etc. Other religions are far less micromanaging. Watchtower has to come up with a new "church" service twice a week, whereas Catholics, for example, give the identical church service every 3 years. And to top it off, many Christian religions are starting to struggle.

  • shepherdless
    shepherdless

    Just in response to Sparky, I recall reading that Watchtower was making about $2 million per week in 1985. I don't know the circulation of around that time, so I don't know if that is plausible.

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