Secondary fulfilment to prophecy?

by Doug Mason 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Mac48


    You wrote: I do not care what any individual JW believes. As long as their belief causes no actual harm to themselves or to anyone else ...

    The problem is their beliefs do cause harm to themselves and others in many ways. For one thing, their disfellowshipping practice destroys families. Over the years millions of people have been badly hurt by JWs who follow their leaders' instructions to shun members of their own family for the rest of their lives for committing the terrible sins of celebrating their childrens' birthdays or questioning some of the Watchtower's highly questionable teachings on things such as its own God-given authority over their lives and when Jerusalem was destroyed. How many of their lives have been greatly harmed by the WTS refusing to allow them to obtain a higher education? I could here list many other ways that being a JW hurts people. JWs are enslaved to the WTS in a way that hurts both themselves and others. And when I see people in slavery I want to help set them free, even if they do not realize how much their slavery is hurting themselves and others.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason


    When you read all that I wrote in that post, you will see that I am in furious agreement with you.

    These issues that we raise are manifestations at the human level - families shredded; some blood products refused; mental illnesses. I do not see them as doctrinal issues. It does not matter one iota whether one accepts the Trinity or not; whether one understand the Ransom or not; whether one accepts their idea of the 144,000 or not; when Jerusalem was destroyed; and so on on. These are simply issues one should use to break the mental stranglehold, not as an issue for its own sake.

    Religious organisations, including the WTS, use doctrines in order to hang onto people. But I do not see their God running an exam on doctrinal issues to determine whether Peter will let someone through the Pearly Gates.


  • Mac48

    Right. Jesus said that when He "separates the sheep from the goats" He will do so on the basis of how much love we showed for "the least of" Christ's "brothers" in practical ways. (Matthew 25:31-46) Sadly, the Watchtower's leaders tell us this means how well we treated them.

  • Half banana
    Half banana

    The JW leadership are incorrigible narcissists and therefore it is with mock humility that they point to themselves as Christ's brothers.

    The writer of the book called Matthew was living in Romanised Palestine which like the rest of the Classical world, depended on slavery. It lived with class distinctions and no doubt the congregations also. So surely Matthew was making the point that to be acceptable members of the church, compassion would ignore class. The poorest believers were feeling excluded-- and hence the need for the comment so that the least among them were to be valued. The spin from today's JW claimants to be the inheritors of God's blessing is quite irrelevant to the original scripture.

    The matter of "secondary fulfillment" is cult gobbledegook. It is typical of the JW org to create new excuses which have formed as a consequence of prophetic failure. The very idea of a "secondary fulfillment" has its roots in the failure of Jesus' prediction regarding the establishment of The Kingdom and the desire to have a second stab at seeing a prediction come true to cover the first error. Mark 9;1.

    Note that Jesus' words were completely wrong so there was no primary fulfilment and that a modern, secondary fulfilment, not surprisingly, also never happens!

  • jookbeard

    there is no original or secondary fulfilment of any biblical prophecy, there are no prophecy's

  • Crazyguy2

    Often times scriptures sites as having a greater fulfillment or is a prophecy about something to occur in the future is actual not that at all. Here is a couple of example I think it Isaiah 53 that’s sited to be about a coming messiah Jesus yet when one reads the surrounding scriptures and chapters it’s really taking about Cyrus.

    Mathew chapter 1:22 is also said the be a prophecy about the one to be called Emanuel and born of a virgin and again is to be Jesus Yet that’s not so. If you turn back to chapter 7:14 of Isaiah you’ll see the prophecy but again read the whole chapter and it’s not talking about a coming Jesus at all.

  • Matijevic

    Thus chapters 2 , 3 and 4 told their followers that their tormentors, who thought their kingdom would last forever, would be brought down. They reapplied Nabonidus' apparent mental illness to Nebuchadnezzar.

    They created time frames ("2300 evenings and mornings", "62 weeks, 7 weeks, and 1 week") that would terminate in their own time.

    Doug, if "they" created 2300, 62 weeks and... why do you refuse idea that they also created time frame of 7 times? Because that time frame can not "terminate in their own time" (middle of 2nd BC)? It seems like prejudice, especially cause you admit that chapter 4 was not relevant to Nebuchadnezzar exclusively or primarily? I THINK, DUE TO THIS STATEMENT YOU SHOULD, AT LEAST, ALLOW POSSIBILITY OF SECONDARY FULFILLMENT! Here are some excerpts from my book: It is interesting that God says here that he will set one person (the lowliest one) over the kingdom of mankind. For many theologians, that man was Nebuchadnezzar, and no one else. We know that the ancient world was much smaller because of the ignorance, but these ignorants knew for kings of Media and Persia, so Chaldean leader was not the sole ruler even in such a small world. (Daniel 5:28-31; 8: 1-3,20) ... Although there are no statistics on the number of mentally ill persons in the sixth century B.C.E, I think Nebuchadnezzar was not the only lunatic. I assume that in those times some imagined to be frogs or cockroaches, which means that on the evolutionary ladder they occupy a lower position comparing to the the four-legged mammals. Then, it seems that even when the Chaldean Empire was at its peak, the kingdom of men was ruled by (several?) kings. And though there are two reasons why Nebuchadnezzar can be ranked among the lower (he was (officially) from an obscure family and lost his mind), there is no clear reason why he should deserve the name the lowliest of men. Daniel and Paul spoke in their books about the Son of Man: „and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed... No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself...“ (Daniel 7:13,14 Philippians 2:7,8) ... Comparing the 4 th and 5 th chapter of Daniel we even more clearly perceive the importance of the knowledge that Jehovah is the supreme ruler. The opportunity for Jehovah's enemy to reconcile with him was not given only to Nebuchadnezzar, but Belshaz′zar probably gambled away his opportunity [5]. And what to say about seven times? Are they given only to Nebuchadnezzar? Only and only together, Nebuchadnezzar and Belshaz′zar confirm the truthfulness of the prophetic announcement: " He changes times and seasons, removes kings and sets up kings ". Therefore, the link between (seven?) times and the opportunity to accept Jehovah's authority and replacement of those in power is obvious. Why should we break this bond when Belshaz′zar is concerned? Neither Daniel's, nor any other book of the Bible does say that the seven times ended [6].

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