Secondary fulfilment to prophecy?

by Doug Mason 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • WTWizard

    The first "fulfillment" was fiction. It is used to bring a second fulfillment--and I have bad news about that. The second fulfillment of the whole bible is Noahide Law, with full enslavement and misery for the whole human race that will never end. And I mean NEVER. I wonder how many are actually looking forward to that--unless, that is, they are going to be one of the masters or think they are.

  • Bobcat

    Hi Mac48,

    If you have time, compare your thoughts on Dan 4 with this thread (on another site). There are some similarities and differences in the proposed application.

  • Mac48


    The thread you linked is 11 pages long, in which you link to many more threads. I'm sorry, but I just don't have time to read all of that. I also see no need to do so. I am entirely happy with my understanding that God intended for the events depicted in Nebuchadnezzar's vision, and in his own later life, to prefigure the time that He will remove Satan from his position as ruler of this world and bind him for 1,000 years. There is no need to make the greater meaning of Daniel 4, if indeed there is one, any more complicated than that.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason


    My position on the Book of Daniel is that it was compiled in 164 BCE during a period of heightened speculative atmosphere initiated during the previous 3rd century, as witnessed through writings such as 1 Enoch, Jubilees, etc. and through actions such as by the communities of the Dead Sea.

    That period created a spirit world with its hierarchy, extending to a spirit leader that personified evil. The name they gave to this leader included Beliar, Belial, Azazel, Mastema, and Satan. This latter individual must not be confused with the satan mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures (Job, etc.).

    Th situation confronting the writers of Daniel (in its present form) was the persecution by Antiochus Epiphanes, and they formulated the stories in such a way that they were giving messages of comfort to their people while not alerting their persecutors to the real messages they were giving.

    So they purported to be writing stories about events taking place centuries earlier, which details their current tormentors would not be aware of. Thus chapters 2 , 3 and 4 told their followers that their tormentors, who thought their kingdom would last forever, would be brought down. They reapplied Nabonidus' apparent mental illness to Nebuchadnezzar.

    They created time frames ("2300 evenings and mornings", "62 weeks, 7 weeks, and 1 week") that would terminate in their own time. They created saviours who would be fulfilled in their time. They spoke of their Kings of the south and of the north -- the Seleucids and the Ptolemies,

    Does this seem like a political document, a political manifesto? Does this go to some way of explaining the reasons its parts were written in two languages?

    These people were not aware of what another group would write centuries later. Completely unaware. And it would be difficult to demonstrate that the writers of Revelations sourced their thought from Daniel. I suspect that 1 Enoch and/or Jubilees were their source(s).


  • Mac48


    I am a Bible-believing Christian. My position is that the Book of Daniel was written by Daniel. And it was written by him when he told us he wrote it, which was during the time he spent in Babylon after he was taken there as Babylon's prisoner. That time began, "in the third year of Jehoiakim king of Judah," as reckoned by Daniel, which was in 605 BC. (Daniel 1:1) Daniel also told us that he was still writing his book, “in the third year of Cyrus king of Persia,” (Daniel 10:1) which was in 537 BC. Since Daniel 1:4 tells us that Daniel was taken to Babylon as a “youth” (let’s say about 15 years old) in 605 BC he would have been about 83 years old when he was still writing his book in 537 BC, which is totally credible.

    However, because the Watchtower Society says Babylon destroyed Jerusalem in 607 BC, 20 years before that event’s true date of 587 BC, they must also push back the “the third year of Jehoiakim” 20 years, when Daniel was taken prisoner, which means they believe he was about 103 years old when he was writing his book “in the third year of Cyrus.” Not very likely. Which is another proof that their “607 BC” date for Jerusalem’s destruction is pure fiction.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason


    Resources I have accessed since consistently state that the source for the 1000 years of Revelation lies with 1 Enoch. They also make references to Daniel 7, but not one mentions Daniel 4 in that context. I also noted a very similar passage in the Apocalypse of Paul.

    Why did Daniel write in two different languages?

    Which Bible do you believe in?


  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason (accessed 9 September 2019)

    The vindication of the saints is accompanied by the complete curtailing of the most characteristic activity of the dragon on earth: deceiving the nations. Yet Satan’s binding is for “a short time”, anticipating his release, and final rebellion and destruction after the millennium in 20:7–10.

    The binding, release, and final judgment of Satan may simply reflect a traditional apocalyptic motif as found in Isa 24:21–22; 1 Enoch 10:4–6, 11–13; and Jude 6, which reflect the common themes of binding and imprisonment of demonic beings (Azazel in 1 Enoch 10:4) until a future time of judgment.

    The parallels between Rev 20:1–10 and 1 Enoch 10:4–6 are particularly close: (1) an angel binds Azazel (10:4; Rev 20:1–2); (2) Azazel is imprisoned in darkness and sealed over for a period of time (10:4–5; Rev 20:3); (3) the binding lasts until the day of judgment when Azazel is thrown into the fire (10:6; Rev 20:3, 7–10); (4) the binding renders Azazel incapable of corrupting the people with false teaching (10:7–8; Rev 20:3). John has taken over and adapted a traditional apocalyptic theme of the binding of the demonic/Satan and has integrated it into his own eschatological scenario of the final battle (20:7–10) and the final vindication of the saints (20:4–6). Thus, the binding and subsequent judgment of Satan are also not meant to communicate chronological information, but the thematic idea of the judgment of Satan using a traditional apocalyptic motif. The binding and judgment of Satan in vv. 1–3, like the millennium of vv. 4–6, function as part of the complex of events that will transpire at the Parousia.

    The inclusion of the one thousand year reign of the saints between the two parallel scenes of the final battle can be explained in three ways. First, at this point John seems to be following Dan 7:9–14. Daniel 7 envisions the destruction of the beast at the end of history and the transference of his authority to the Son of Man and the saints with him. The judgment of the beast and the saints’ enemies is a necessary prelude for the reign of the saints. Therefore, the destruction of the beast and all evil in Revelation “requires as its positive counterpart that judgment be given in favour of the martyrs, who must be vindicated and rewarded.”

    Second, and related to this, the mention of the saints seated on thrones in 20:4–6 suggests not only reigning but judging (cf. Dan 7:22; Luke 22:30; 1 Cor 6:2). The saints carry out their judicial function by ruling over and defeating the enemies in 19:11–21; 20:7–11.

    Finally, by placing the vision of the final vindication of the saints in 20:4–6 immediately prior to the account of the final eschatological battle in vv. 7–11, John emphasizes that the vindication and victory of the saints is irreversible and secure. Satan’s last-ditch effort to thwart the saints is no contest at all and ends up in inevitable failure (vv. 9–10). God’s word on the matter is final.

  • Mac48


    You asked: Why did Daniel write in two different languages?

    Daniel was taken captive as a youth and appears to have served as an official of the Babylonian/Persian government for about 70 years. As I noted earlier, as a Babylonian he is known to have reckoned the reigns of kings using the Babylonian accession year system of reckoning while using Babylon’s calendar which began in the spring. (Judean Bible writers counted the reigns of its kings using their civil calendar that began in the fall.) Because Daniel lived and worked as a Babylonian for so long he often wrote in the Aramaic language, the language of the Babylonians. From the beginning of his book through Daniel 2:3 he wrote in Hebrew. In Daniel 2:4 he switched to Aramaic, and used that language through the end of chapter 7. This may have been because this part of his book dealt primarily with non-Jewish matters. Beginning in chapter 8, the rest of his book was written in Hebrew again, possibly because the focus of the last 5 chapters is mainly on Israel.

    You asked: Which Bible do you believe in?

    I believe in the Protestant Christian Bible which contains a collection of 70 books. Although this Bible is most often said to contain “66 books,” it is actually a collection of 70 books. For the Bible’s book of Psalms was originally written and compiled as five separate books, and it remains so divided in almost all Bibles today. (“Book 1” is made up of chapters 1-41, “Book 2” contains chapters 42-72, “Book 3” includes chapters 73-89, “Book 4” has chapters 90-106, and “Book 5” contains chapters 107-150.) So, with the five books of Psalms, together with the Bible’s other sixty-five books, the Bible contains a total of 70 books. (The books of the Apocrypha now found in Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, and which were also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, aka the LXX, were never in any Hebrew Bible.) The Bible often uses the number 70 to refer to things that are perfect and spiritually complete. So, whenever someone tells us that we need to read their new so-called “holy book” we can confidently reply that our Bible is perfectly complete and that it contains everything about God and from God that we need to know. I understand that this 70 book count also shows that most other extra-biblical written works, which some people claim were supernaturally inspired by God, were actually written by false prophets and false teachers. These include all of the so-called “holy books” of non-Christian religions, such as Islam’s Quran, as well as all such books which have been written by people claiming to be followers of Jesus Christ, such as Joseph Smith of the Mormons, Ellen G. White of the Seventh Day Adventists, and Mary Baker Eddy of the Christian Scientists. By making our Bible a collection of 70 books I believe God intended to inform us that it contains everything we need to know in order for us to receive both His forgiveness for our sins and His gift of eternal life.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason


    While we have very differing outcomes to our investigations, I genuinely wish you well and that your faith gives you peace and meaning to your life.

    I do not care what any individual JW believes. As long as their belief causes no actual harm to themselves or to anyone else, the only thing is that a JW lives in accordance with their individual genuinely held beliefs.

    My beef is with the Organisation and with its leaders, who are less than forthright with the people who put their lives in the hands of those who are prepared to deceive them.

    Thus I use topics such as chronology and blood to show JWs what the leadership truly is.

    My concerns are thus not doctrinal but

    1. They rip families apart

    2. People die unnecessarily due to the leaders' stance on the medical use of some blood products

    3. Cognitive dissonance has such terrible mental impacts.


  • truthlover123

    I agree with Rickroll - several years ago they did not want anything applied - type/ anti type but since then they have BEEN RELIGIOUSLY DOING IT..

    Same about talking about the new system.. we should not assume, we were told - yet on the platform the next year, teenagers were talking about what they were going to do and what would be there.... double talk is all the society does to further confuse an already confusing situation...

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