GB and Moses—an interesting similarity!

by Ireneus 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Ireneus

    Moses is the symbol of divorcing anyone who acts smarter and exhibits sharper spiritual insight. His wife, Zipporah, daughter of a pagan Midianite priest (Exodus 2.15-22), was more spiritual and had keener spiritual insight than Moses. On one occasion she averted a disaster by acting promptly (by performing the act of circumcision on their son) thus saving Moses from being killed by Jehovah’s angel which ultimately helped the Israelites’ exodus from Egypt. (Exodus 4:24-26) Yet Moses left her behind before the exodus. (Exodus 18:2) Though it is reported that she later reunited with Moses (may be an interpolated idea) it has no charm in it as Moses had already taken another wife, a "Cushite" or Ethiopian woman. (Numbers 12:1)

    This is exactly how GB responded to all those (including former GB member Raymond Franz) who had deeper spiritual insight, hence tried to correct the system from within. No wonder, Jesus tried to undermine religious leaders like Moses whenever opportunity presented itself. (Mathew 19:8) When people brought a prostitute to Jesus and asked: “In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”…”Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger” signifying “Law is like writings made on the desert sand or like lines drawn in the water, no meaning, is of no use to anyone.” Then he made this revolutionary statement: “Then neither do I condemn you, Go now and stop sinning.” (John 8:1-11)

    This explains why we find in the Bible under-currents of schools of thought for and against Law.

  • myelaine


    Jesus upheld the law perfectly. It was His stated mission to do the will of His Father. He in know way tried to say or show that the law meant nothing or undermine Moses. He even told assembled crowds to OBEY what the Pharisees say when they are sitting in the seat of Moses (teaching the law without adding to it or taking away from it) matthew 23:3

    When the Pharisees brought the women caught in adultery to Jesus and said the law commanded that she be stoned, that isn't the law of God. It may have become a tradition in the oral or extra-biblical "law" of the Pharisees, but not the law of God.

    The law of God stated that both the man and the woman are to be brought before the judge together, there must be 2 or 3 witnesses to the act of adultery and if found guilty, the very people who charged them with adultery were the ones who were supposed to stone both the man and woman. The Pharisees were violating the law. That's why Jesus said, "he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

  • Ireneus

    Hi myelaine

    Jesus cancelled Law of Moses when he said Mathew 7:12, illustrated it with no ambiguity in Mathew 25:31-46 and declared that no religious leaders are authorized to lead the people in his name (Mathew 7:21-23).

    This is because if one realized that action and consequence are inseparable (which is too obvious in the nature, history and even in individual experiences), he would act thoughtfully taking all pros and cons before executing the action. This is all what is required. (Eccl 12:13, 14)

  • venus

    This shows Jesus knew that humans are not meant to take guidance from other humans because of the simple truth that each one’s very essence is endowed with ability to receive and transmit guidance from God if we make an effort to really listen to it: “The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16)

    Interestingly, through different wordings, Carl Jung indirectly points to the ability of our inner self. He arrived at this conclusion from analyzing his own dreams which he says is the means our sub-conscious mind uses to communicate with us by delivering messages direct to the conscious. Although many different characters can appear in our dreams, he believed that “every character is a different aspect of our unacknowledged self or a prevalent situation in our life. Basically, we cannot easily retrieve the data stored in our unconscious mind, so dreams offer the opportunity to view the data so that we can achieve inner peace, balance and harmony and achieve self-growth and self-realization, which propel us towards our unique higher purpose”—a process he meant by the term individuation.

    “Dreams are impartial, spontaneous products of the unconscious psyche, outside the control of the will. They are pure nature; they show us the unvarnished, natural truth, and are therefore fitted, as nothing else is, to give us back an attitude that accords with our basic human nature when our consciousness has strayed too far from its foundations and run into an impasse.”

    [Collected Works Volume 10, paragraph 317]

  • smiddy3

    Moses "supposedly" wrote the first five books of the Bible approximately 2,000 years after the creation of Adam .

    {Maybe nobody knew how to write during those first 2,000 years} .

    Jesus never wrote anything down at all .?

    { You can speculate all you want here }

    The Governing Body / WTB&TS / Jehovah`s Witnesses / I.B.S.A. have been prolific in their writings these past 140 or so years flooding the western Christian world with their literature and having virtually no impact on non Christian lands at all.

    So they have really only preached to about a third of the earths population ,so that means at least two thirds of the worlds population have never heard of Jehovah`s Witnesses or Gods Kingdom.

    And after this 140 or so years the vast majority of all that has been published by this religious organization over all these years has been discarded as "old light" and not believed or preached anymore .

    In other words.. they were .. WRONG .

    WRONG.... a word that Jehovah`s Witnesses have great difficulty saying or admitting too that they were WRONG .

  • venus

    Smiddy3, that’s true.

    Many Bible writers were writing things which they did not mean or lost meaning later. For example, epileptic seizures occur because of a sudden surge of electrical activity in the brain, which causes a temporary disturbance in the messaging systems between the brain cells. Unaware of this truth, ancient superstitious people thought such seizures are the result of demon-possessions, hence practiced exorcism. People with such wrong ideas wrote the account of Mark 9:17-29 where we find Jesus is depicted as curing an epileptic patient by casting out demons from him declaring: “This kind can come out only by prayer.” Same type of people are behind projecting Joshua as stopping “the sun and moon” from orbiting (Joshua 10:12) which meant they didn’t know that if the sun stood still, there would have to be a suspension of both our orbital movement as well as our rotational movement in order to keep the sun specifically over one location .

    This shows human ideas can make their way into the Bible and may appear as though coming from the mouth of Jesus, or any prophet. So is the case with Moses and his Law.

  • dogisgod

    Hummmmm. Does this mean that like Moses the GB will not be allowed into the new system.

  • myelaine

    dear Ireneus...

    You said, "Jesus cancelled Law of Moses when he said Mathew 7:12,"...

    When a person carries out the precepts of the law (in the spirit of mercy and with impartiality, not simply the letter of the law) and hears the prophets admonitions, they will be loving God and their neighbour as themselves. Matthew 23:23.

    You said, "This is because if one realized that action and consequence are inseparable (which is too obvious in the nature, history and even in individual experiences), he would act thoughtfully taking all pros and cons before executing the action. This is all what is required. (Eccl 12:13, 14"...

    The thing is, it's not a question of "realization", some people don't care about consequences for themselves or others. If a murderer cared about consequences he wouldn't murder. If a thief cared about consequences he wouldn't steal. If the Pharisees cared about the elderly as the law prescribed they wouldn't have devised a way for people to neglect the welfare of parents under the guise of corban. Honoring your parents was more important to God than dedicating money to the temple. Matthew 15:3-9. This scripture goes hand in hand with the other scripture I posted. Jesus told people to obey what the Pharisees teach when they sit in the seat of Moses, but don't do what they do. Absolutely everything that Jesus taught came from the law. The essence of what He said was: keep the law, lose the traditions of men that have added to or taken away from the law. Deut. 4:2. John 7:16.

    Matthew 25:31-46...Jesus said "His brothers...the least of these". He also said, " who is My mother, My sister, My brother? Those who do the will of My Father." Mark 3:35. Especially poignant given the fact that the early gentile leaders of the church completely turned their back on the Jews. It was during that time that Jews were vilified and any practice that had the whiff of Judaism was excised in an attempt to appease Rome. These leaders didn't "keep the commandments of God and hold fast the testamony of Jesus Christ". They took the mark of Rome in order to continue buying and selling. Jew hatred was the "spirit" of the age and though professing christians might be horrified by the way the Jews were treated by Rome and the early church leaders, the result of that turning away from Jesus' brothers and "the faith of Christ" has become institutionalized church dogma. IE: the law is done away with and in some cases, Israel/the Jews have been replaced (at least until they "come to Jesus" and stop following the commands of God).

    God says clearly in the OT that there will come a day when He will make a new covenant. The law will be written on hearts instead of stone. It was written on stone because the Israelites were fearful of God being close to them. Consequently, many obeyed the law of God out of fear (if you read Psalm 119 you see that David followed out of love for God). Jesus initiated the new covenant in His blood. The law would be written on our hearts. Same law but we see the love of God in Jesus...we don't obey out of fear but out of love. That Spirit of Christ that is in believers empowers them to be obedient, as Jesus was obedient. Now, we can't be obedient to the law of God if we don't learn what the law is. Scripture says that the written law was our teacher (learn it) until Christ (live it)...follow Him. Romans 3:31; Romans 7:12; Romans 7:22.

    Now, I understand that this might be all new to you, but if you did read the history, if you did read scripture in context and if you did hear what scripture is actually saying, the arguments you present as topics for discussion would be a lot more credible. As it is, you're deluding yourself into believing scripture is saying something it isn't and it seems you're unwilling to consider alternatives that might disabuse you of your beliefs. (Judges 21:25).

    There is more similarity between you and the GB than Moses and the GB in that regard.


  • Ireneus

    Hi myelaine

    A tree is judged by its fruits. (Luke 6:43-45) We have to judge the Bible not by its claim, but what it has done to mankind. Your comments confirm what George Bernard Shaw said about the Bible: “No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.”

    It is this very unique feature of Bible that gave rise to over 41000 warring sects within Christianity. God’s word should unite people, not divide them. “God is not a God of disorder”—1 Corinthians 14:33

  • myelaine

    dear Ireneus...

    You said, "A tree is judged by its fruits. (Luke 6:43-45)"...

    Interesting you should quote that verse. Paul taught that some natural branches were broken off of the olive tree and wild branches were grafted in. This tree is representative of the Israel of God. Those who worship God in spirit and truth. Clearly there are people who worship in spirit and truth.

    You said, "We have to judge the Bible not by its claim, but what it has done to mankind."...

    Actually it is judged by its claim. It makes statements and people believe it or not. How people react to those statements is based on their inner compass (often directed by outside "forces"). For instance some people are willing to go to war for the claims of the bible (NT) and some people shun the idea of war all together because of the claims of the bible (NT). The bible doesn't say christians go into physical war and impose its claims on others nor does it say to shun physical war all together. The bible does say to care for the oppressed. A persons inner compass might lead them to join forces to liberate the oppressed or not. "The bible" hasn't led them to physical conflict, their inner compass has.

    You said, "Your comments confirm what George Bernard Shaw said about the Bible: “No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.”...

    Again, some context would be helpful.

    You said, "It is this very unique feature of Bible that gave rise to over 41000 warring sects within Christianity. God’s word should unite people, not divide them. “God is not a God of disorder”—1 Corinthians 14:33"...

    It is your belief that there are 41000 "warring" sects within christianity. There might be 300 different Baptist associations and 1000 Anglican (I don't know the numbers this is just an example). None of them are warring. People are free to float from one denomination to another without fear of having to fight anyone or defend their faith or anything of the sort. Again you're saying things that are unfounded.

    What led to the 41000 denominations is the fact that the early church leaders chose to "unhitch" themselves from a divinely inspired, clearly defined set of laws. The laws of God's kingdom. The laws that the King OF God's kingdom followed, taught and agreed with. The government will be on His shoulders! Being the Word of God, these laws were His words! If anyone says, "Jesus is my King" but shuns His torah/law how IS IT or IN WHAT WAY have they placed themselves under His authority? Isn't it more like, they've actually placed themselves under the authority of false teachers? Think about that. Also think about how "free" you are to disentange yourself from that mess. Count the cost of following Christ. Like the Jews in His day and Paul in particular, one has to consider all that extra biblical "so called knowledge", dross. One has to consider losing standing in the church, the possible scorn of peers and leaders alike. If Jesus sets you free, you ARE free indeed. Free from false doctrine that leads to sin instead of away from it AND free from the penalty of tresspassing the law (death) if you don't quite hit the mark that you're AIMING FOR.

    Leaders and congregations started to behave like schools of fish. Each following their own lead. Of course, there is always talk of Holy Spirit guidance, but that's questionable. For instance, would the Holy Spirit inspire the RCC to go throughout the land and impose its doctrine with the blade of a sword? Would the Holy Spirit inspire "the father of the reformation", Martin Luther, to spew forth his sermon "The Jews and Their Lies"? There is no indication in scripture that this would come from the Spirit of Christ. In fact the opposite is indicated. The Hebrew people (named Israel) are the apple of God's eye on account of the patriarchs. Yes, He chastened them, but He chastens all those He loves...for their own good. Jesus never imposed Himself on anyone, He told His disciple to put away the sword. I provided two examples of people reading what "they mean" into the scriptures. Here's another:

    1 Timothy 4:1-5. Institutionalized dogma says that one thing Paul was teaching here is that the food laws are done away with. That's not what he was teaching at all. He was a torah observant Israelite from the tribe of Benjamin and he said himself, he delighted in the law/torah of God.

    4. Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

    First of all, to a torah observant Israelite ALL CREATURES ARE NOT created to be food. All a person has to do is go to the OT and read "the word of God" to find out which creatures are "sanctified/set apart" to be received with thanksgiving. As it happens, there are some creatures that are not to be eaten because God said eating them would be an abomination. God doesn't use that particular word lightly, but in fact He used it several times in trying to get His point across about unclean food in particular. Secondly, a torah observant Israelite who delites in the law of God is not going to call any of the instructions contained therein, "doctrines of demons".

    Now for some context: Paul's ministry included defending the faith, once for all delivered to the saints, from both "Jewish" believers who were (among other things) of the belief that a gentile had to be circumcised as a prerequisite to salvation. Some believing gentile ascetics were teaching that the flesh had to be mortified to please God. One should abstain from all physical pleasure which would definitely include the pleasures of marriage. Some believers (likely Jews) were so paranoid about the possibility that market food could have been sacrificed to idols that they were telling people don't eat any of that stuff. (He taught in another place that if you're invited to dine, just eat what is put in front of you, it will be sanctified by your prayer. (*note: that teaching is in the context of food sacrificed to's not about making unclean foods suddenly clean through your prayer. I mean, He sent His beloved Son to die for people breaking that law, it doesn't matter how fervently you pray over your pork ribs, He's not going to cave and decide that maybe He was hasty in saying that's an abomination). The teaching contained in that scripture of 1 Timothy is warning about these ones who were leading people away from the truth. God instituted marriage and it is honourable, it is not to be shunned as a means of "godliness" and food that was created to be eaten shouldn't be avoided, it should be received with thanksgiving. That is the truth, not what these others were teaching. You see how that scripture, viewed in context, doesn't mean what some people want it to mean? The apostle Peter was absolutely right when he said: 2 Peter 3:16. These men weren't "unstable" as in mentally unhinged, they didn't find stability for their doctrine in the torah, and they were teaching people in such a way that their doctrines had the effect of causing people to practice sin in their ignorance.

    Anyway, schools of fish...that's what happens when people decide it's ok to unhitch themselves from law. Any set of "laws" that is so flexible that it can be molded by anyones hands isn't even a law, it's a suggestion. A law that one school of fish finds unsavory can be abandoned (or amended into oblivion) and on and on until instability is followed by some kind of destruction. It can happen in ancient Israel, the church and modern society. It doesn't just happen, it's a consequence of a particular action.


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