Reply to Elderwho and Scholar on Chronology

by shotgun 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JCanon

    A few more questions for you....if you don't want to post them send me a PM.

    Are you still a baptized member in good standing?

    Ummmmm....that's sort of a complex question. I'm a rebel anointed member who particiapted in spirtiually disfellowshipping the Governing Body in 1992, an organization once considered God's temple organization but whose covenant ended, along with that of the Jews in 1996 at the end of the last 490 years (70 weeks). So am I a baptized member? Yes. In good standing? No, since I dissociated myself and haven't gotten back in nor do I intend to. Jehovah has abaondoned this organization. I say that since this organization often associates being "in good standing" with the organization as being in good standing with God is now two different things. The SPIRITUAL readout here is that Christ, when he comes, he comes to the temple organization that was used which was a "wheat-weed" organization from the beginning. Christ planted wheat but the devil planted weeds before the first blades of growth in the organization came up. Rather than clean up the organization at this early stage and possibly loose some precious wheat, he allowed the organization to be used until the harvest. Then at the harvest, which was at Passover 1993 he separates the wheat from the weeds. But the ACTUAL process is described as Jesus coming and taking his "little flock" out of that organization and having them join up with "other sheep" not of this fold. Therefore, he abandons the goats to that oganization along with the "evil slave" which turned out to be the governing body. He doesn't kick out the weeds finally and cleans up the organization. Instead he takes out the wheat and abandons the organization. So no, I'm not considered to be "in good standing" as far as the technical organization goes, but who cares? The GB has been "disfellowshipped" and the reason they are in such doctrinal hot water now is proof they are in spiritual darkness. I'm out and glad to have my Christian freedom.

    Have you presented any of your research to the Society or Elders?

    Ummm...yes and no. Some basic things were communicated to up to 2/3rds of the congregations by mail and other means, those that could be contacted that way with the presumption this information would be shared with the organization. But the critical research I have now has not been communicated directly with them. The last "official" communication I had with them was in 1993, I believe. The letter "disfellowshipping" the Governing Body and identifying them as the "evil slave" was sent 45 days before the second coming, on November 20, 1992. But I'm assuming they monitor these discussion boards allt he time and it's next to impossible they don't know the pertinent points.

    On that basis, though, it would appear that at some point they accept the reality of the hot water they are in (i.e. the Rich Man now in spiritual doctrinal torment) and will request Lazarus to go and witness to their "five brothers" which relates to the ungathered "five foolish virgins" who were sleeping when the Messiah arrived. But a direct witness to them by the Messiah is refused since Father Abraham says if they don't believe "Moses and the Prophets", i.e. the Bible directly, then neither would they believe any miraculous words or works the Messiah might perform for them and in addition to that a "chasm" has been created between the Messiah and Rich Man those with him, not that all with them have been condemned...

    Sooooo.....I'd have to consider carefully whether it would be appropriate for me to interact with them directly at this point, other than condemning them for their false teachings.

    What is described is actually happening though. Lazarus, the former prodigal son who had lost his faith and then regained it and then made the Messiah always loved knowledge and was disappointed in the crumbs falling from the Rich Man's table. But in the end, when the becomes the Messiah, he is basking in great knowledge and spiritual understanding and the Rich Man is in total darkness spiritually. So he requests a little drop of water to cool his tongue, that is, something to redeem himself a bit from his torment, some excuse perhaps that he can communicate to his now disappointed and ever more aware followers, but Father Abraham does not permit it, telling them basically to go to "Moses and the Prophets" themselves, that is the scriptures. Same was told to them by the "wise virgins" who tell them to go and get oil from those who sell, it, that is, the Bible. But the wise virgins and the foolish virgins are separated and the wise virgins don't give any of THEIR oil to the foolish virgins. So it's like they are over there and we are over here and there's no way to fix that gap.

    In the meantime, Christ has gathered the wheat out of this organization and has no intent on rescuing the Governing Body or the organization at this point.

    One more question?


    If all the information is there in the bible to discern the dates and calculate Jesus second coming and the end of the Gentile times why did Jesus and the Apostles say there is no need to know times or seasons in regard to these issues?


    Good question, only that is not SPECIFICALLY accurate. The reference you are referring to specifically was to the specific question: "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?"

    To which the replyl was: "It does not belong to you to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction."

    Now. If they had been given the actual date of the second coming, then this would not be considered something that God had placed in his own jurisdiction. So is there a conflict? No! Why? Because Christ "restoring the kingdom to Israel" is a different event than the second coming. There is a delay between the time Christ arrives and kicks Satan out of heaven and begins ruling in the spiritual sense and when he actually sets up the spiritual kingdom on the earth. When he sets up the spiritual kingdom on the earth is more specific to when he would be "restoring the kingdom to Israel", thus beginning his 1000-year reign. So Christ was indicating that this, basically, was something that God was keeping to himself and not giving them any specific information about. It did not refer to those many things that were dated in the Bible that had to fulfill various patterns and prophecies.

    So what this scripture tells us is simply that the date for the beginning of the millennium, that is when Christ's kingdom begins it rule in the earth and thus restores the earthly kingship of Israel, is something that God has kept secret unto himself. So it was not to ALL times and events, just that specific event that this reference was. problem...

  • JCanon
    If all the information is there in the bible to discern the dates and calculate Jesus second coming and the end of the Gentile times why did Jesus and the Apostles say there is no need to know times or seasons in regard to these issues? Thanks

    Just one more general comment about this and the WTS. Don't forget that after the great tibulation, that is, after the Holocaust and the "end of the gentile times", there was first supposed to be a period of spiritual darkness of the sun and moon and stars then the sign of the son of man would appear.

    So generally, the critical spiritual understanding of the dating of the Messiah and the manner of his return would not be known but for a few because of this darkness. Even the five "wise virgins" are thus aid to be "nodding" at the specific time when the Messiah arrives, meaning they would not understand precisely the details.

    Thus, one must consider that though we have the dating all worked out now, it is a testimony of proof primarily AFTER THE FACT! It's a detail known and understood, therefore, to simply confirm the kingship and not to predict it.

    So in that sense as well, this timing was hidden until God's time in various ways in scripture until God wanted it revealed.

    So it's not entirely a matter of any of us ignoring too much some of these issues as much as insufficient light being provided to understand these things under the circumstances.

    Furthermore, the academic references have changed. Before the double-dating in the VAT4956 was discovered, there were probably some competition to either dismiss the Bible's chronology or try to twist it in some way to match up with what seemed to be nearly irrefutable evidence of what the original chronology was. But now there is no choice in the matter and it's now a matter of academic irresponsiblity not to update to the correct dating. So the "secular references" the society had confidence in, the 539BCE dating, which had strong backing academically before that might have been convincing or competitive is now gone. LIke the Bible said, all those islands and mountains of fake evidence have now fled from the scene, leaving NOTHING to support the 539BCE or 607BCE chronologies now! So if they had this information earlier, maybe they might have updated and claimed "new light" from God, but it didn't work that way.

    What happened is the Messiah came in like a thief and STOLE their outer garment. That is, Lazarus is basking in the sun of glory having the true knowledge while the Rich Man/Governing Body is naked and in shame and torment as far as being one who understanding Bible prophecy and chronology, etc.

    But ultimately, had they relied TOTALLY on the Bible, they would have come up with close to the right dating scenario as others have managed to do so, dismissing as fraudulent and/or incompetent the popular secular chronology (i.e.such as Martin Anstey who understood the 70 weeks prophecy must be fulfilled by Cyrus!).

    Anyway, the DATING and chronology serve more as an after-the-fact confirmation than a prediction in advance;


  • lawrence

    What happened to FAITH? You all sound like Pharisees, or Rabbi Rashi. Who the hell are you to disfellowship anyone? We are supposed to be bond servants! We are supposed to search for the pearl! Your rambles about chronologies are no different than the Hebrew writings I read as a child, and then the Greek inflections in A.T. Robertson's books I read as a young adult. Then the Master came with a light load and a kindly yoke. You guys just muck up the slimy waters that the WTS urinated in. What happened to FAITH?

  • RunningMan

    You brought up an interesting point regarding the age of Daniel. Notice the words of Ezekiel 28:3, "you are indeed wiser than Daniel;
    no secret is hidden from you;"

    and Ezekiel 14:20, "even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, says the Lord GOD, they would deliver neither son nor daughter; they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness."

    Ezekiel pre-dates the destruction of Jerusalem, yet it lists Daniel as already well established in Hebrew legend.

    Historically, the book of Daniel has very little merit. It was written 300-400 years after the events that it contains, and is creditted back to an ancient worthy (Daniel) in order to give it credibility. In reality, the book contains numerous anachronisms and errors. Even its namesake was a legendary figure who was long dead when the events occurred.

    So, there really isn't much point in trying to analyze its fine points. It has some useful information, but it is not historically accurate.

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