Reply to Elderwho and Scholar on Chronology

by shotgun 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  shotgun

  I had to start a new thread on this as I wanted to see the response from the distinguished forum on this subject

  Scholar said

  You are quite wrong in assuming that in connection with chronology that I am only familiar with WT materials. In fact I have had a keen interest in chronology for some thirty years and have a large number of journal articles and standard reference books on chronology including editions of Edwin Thiele and Carl Jonsson.

  My reply to elderwho and scholar is as follows and I would like the forums thoughts on this. I am seraching to understand just as elderwho is and would appreciate any insight.

  Hi elderwho

  I have spent many hours pouring over the chronology.....I too come up with the same conclusions as you. The elder I was talking too would not know...The first elders who met with me several months ago where stumped when I showed them this, they marked down all the scriptures I showed them and then never mentioned it again...I then showed them that according to WT chronology Daniel would have been somewhere around 95 in the third year of Cyrus rule 535..the last mention of him and also that the Jews who had returned and were rebuilding the temple in 518 would have been between 95 and 100 if the temple was destroyed in 607 when over 500years prior to this David had said mans lifespan was 70-80 years. Did it seem reasonable that captivity would lengthen instead of shorten your life.

  If scholar and the WTBTS are correct it means there has been a concerted effort by Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians and the Jewish nation for 2600 years to conceal and hide the evidence needed to support the WT claims.

  I do know that Jesus had the book of Daniel and he never mentioned using chronology to mark his return. The apostles had the Holy spirit even bringing ones back from the dead, they never mentioned using chronology to pinpoint his return.

  Does it seem reasonable that such an accurate time indicator would be in the bible, why would Jesus give his main adversary the Devil the needed info to pinpoint his return. Maybe the angels have no comprehension of human language...hardly they spoke with many faithful ones throughout the scriptures.

  Why did Satan wait until after he was thrown out of heaven to create such a stir. If you knew someone stronger than you was coming and basically going to throw you out of your apartment would you create more havoc with all his belongings before or after he arrives...or did Satan because he's read the scriptures and he's so submissive wait until the appointed times of the nations had been fulfilled before starting to take vengence on the earth.

  Why did Jesus on his way to Jerusalem the very last time tell the Apostles that they were going there so that all the remaining phrophecies concerning the Messiah might be fulfilled. This would include Daniels and all the other prophets before Christ. The only ones left were the ones he said concerning the last days of the Jewish system of things which he fulfilled right down to the letter up to 70CE when that system was destroyed during a great tribulation which as Jesus stated had not occurred before , No nor would occur again. What does No nor will occur again mean...maybe sometime again or except in its second fulfillment which the spirit filled apostles knew nothing about but an earnest businessman and a lawyer would piece together 2000 years later with the help of the bible and the pyramids. Its no wonder the Finished Mystery stated C.T Russell had a headache everyday for twenty years...I've had one everyday for 6 months reading his thoughts on paper.

  Scholar can you provide the names for the missing 20 years in babylonian chronology to support the 607 date. You said you have 30 years invested in this research...share your finds with us...just the names and dates of the rulers and where this info can be found. I am truly open to dig back into my research if needed, the reason I started digging originally was to bolster my beliefs not fuel my doubts into a raging forest fire.
• 

  ellderwho

  " After reigning but two years King Evil-merodach was murdered by his brother in law Neriglissar. According to the inscriptions that have been found, this usurper of the throne spent most of his time in building operations and reigned for four years. When he died, his son Labashi-Marduk, though not yet of age, succeeded him. He was a vicious boy, and within nine months he had his throat cut by an assassin. Nabonidus, who had served as Governor of Babylon and who had been Nebuchadnezzer's favorite son-in-law, now took the throne and had a fairly glorious reign till Babylon fell in 539 B.C." Babylon The Great Has Fallen' page 184 .

  Insight on the Scriptures Vol.1 page 466

  Chart of chronology:

  Jehoiakim began to rule as king, tributary

  to Egypt (11)

  In the third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim the king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzer the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem to lay seige to it. Daniel 1:1 NWT

  My ? is this, according to Insight on the scriptures vol. 1 that is qouted above, would that make Nebuchadnezzers first year reign 624/23 ?
• 

  shotgun

  Quite a dilemma isn't it elderwho thier own chronology studies do not add up, instead thier short by 20 years.

  Scholar did reply but in typical WT fashion did not back up his claim of proof and instead he said we must believe the bible when earlier he said his thirty years of study along with WT publications presented all the facts. I quess for me thats good news because now I don't need to examine anything brought forward by scholar, nothing is there. If you want a bible outline to explain the chronology send me a PM and I'll be glad to send you some of my research which you can examine for yourself and use the bible to test it out.

  By the way elderwho like I already mentioned the whole 7 times, 2520 years and the end of the gentile times saga has nothing to do with anything Jesus or his apostles taught. But if you run a publishing company it sure does make for alot of printing in your bi-weekly journals.
• 

  JCanon

  Just for your general background:

  Scholar can you provide the names for the missing 20 years in babylonian chronology to support the 607 date. You said you have 30 years invested in this research...share your finds with us...just the names and dates of the rulers and where this info can be found. I am truly open to dig back into my research if needed, the reason I started digging originally was to bolster my beliefs not fuel my doubts into a raging forest fire.

  Jehovah's witnesses have generally agreed with Josephus about the 70 years. If you check a copy of Josephus, in the back appendix part he discusses chronology as translated by William Whiston. I have yet to locate a copy on the net. But Josephus, likewise in that chronology chart introduces the 70 years after the "conflagration" and assigns a 22-year rule to Evil-Merodach. So that's "generally" been the position of the WTS which I think can be reflected in some of their quotes somewhere which is not being quoted here for some reason. That is, generally establishing that the chronology for this period is somewhat not definite and somewhat up for grabs, the PRESUME that the 20 years are added to the rule of Evil-Merodach to make up the 607BCE date. And that concept, as I noted, for those adding the 70 years in, such as Josephus, do the same thing.

  I'll try to find a reference to that. I'm sure the witnesses noticed and understood they'd have to expand some of the rulerships to make up for the 70 years from the 1st of Cyrus to the fall of Jerusalem.

  Josephus, of course, elsewhere dates the 70 years four years after the fall of Jerusalem in his "Antiquities" references (Ant. 11.1.1), and claims also in Antiquities in one place that Evil-Merodach ruled for "18 years". In his final work he converts to the popular chronology and claims Evil-Merodach only ruled for 2 years. Whether Josephus is playing games or he was later revised as we know is the case in some passages I'm not sure. But all those references are part of the "confusion".

  Anyway, Josephus makes up for the 70 years by adding 20 years to the reign of Evil Merodach and I think the Society generally accepts that as the closest possibility.

  Canon
• 

  JCanon

  I'm still looking....

  Here's one "Jewish" reference which gives a 45-year vs 43-year rule for Nebuchadnezzar and the 22-year rule for Ewil-Merodach...

  (Permission is granted to redistribute this material as long as the Kollel header and the subscription info at the end are included.)

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  Megilah Chart #5 Megilah Daf 11b

  A TIMELINE OF THE YEARS OF GALUS BAVEL

  NUMBER OF YEARS FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE REIGN OF NEVUCHADNEZAR ______________________ 0 -|-NEVUCHADNEZAR conquers Nineveh and becomes king(1) | 1 -|-Nevuchadnezar conquers YEHOYAKIM and appoints him as a vassal king(2) | | 4 -|-Yehoyakim rebels against Nevuchadnezar | | 7 -|-Nevuchadnezar quells Yehoyakim's rebellion, killing Yehoyakim and | appointing his son, YEHOYACHIN, in his place as vassal king | 8* -|-Yehoyachin rebels against Nevuchadnezar, and Nevuchadnezar exiles him | to Bavel and appoints Yehoyakim's brother, TZIDKIYAHU in his place | : : | 19* |-Nevuchadnezar blinds and exiles Tzidkiyahu, and destroys the | Beis ha'Mikdash on the Ninth of Av | : : | 45 -|-Nevuchadnezar dies after reigning for 45 years. His son EVIL-MERODACH | is coronated in his place(3) | : : | 67 -|-Evil-Merodach dies after reigning for 22 years(4). His son(5) | BELSHATZAR is coronated in his place. | 69 -|-Belshatzar errs in his calculation of the 70-year duration of Galus | Bavel, as predicted by the prophets. As a result, when his 2nd year | passes he celebrates that the Jews were not redeemed by defiling the | holy vessels of the Beis ha'Mikdash. He is killed that very night by | DARYAVESH (Darius) the Mede, who succeeds him to the Babylonian | throne.(6) | 70 -|-Daryavesh, after killing Belshatzar, rules for one year (*besides* | completing the year that Belshatzar started immediately before his | death). | 71**|-The kingship passes from Daryavesh to KORESH (Cyrus) the Persian. | He fulfills the prophecy that predicts Hashem's "Pekidah" of | the Jewish people after 70 years from the time of Nevuchadnezar's | rise to power.(7) | 74 -|-Koresh dies after reigning for 3 years. ACHASHVEROSH becomes king in | his place. | 76 -|-Achashverosh errs in his calculation of the 70-year duration of Galus | Bavel, thinking that 70 years have passed from the time of the Galus | of Yehoyachin.(8) He celebrates that the Jews were not redeemed by | defiling the holy vessels of the Beis ha'Mikdash. | | 86 -|-THE MIRACLE OF PURIM occurs, in the 12th year of the reign of | Achashverosh. | 88 -|-Achashverosh dies after reigning for 14 years. His son DARYAVESH(9) | inherits the throne.(10) | 89**|-Daryavash gives permission to Ezra to return to Eretz Yisrael and to | rebuild the Beis ha'Mikdash(11) -- EXACTLY 70 YEARS after the | Churban of the Beis ha'Mikdash.(12) * = Galus **= Ge'ulah

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  FOOTNOTES:
  ==========
  (1) He attained the kingship over the empire by conquering Nineveh.
  (2) This occurred at the end of the first year (i.e. the beginning of the second year) of Nevuchadnezar's reign, which was the *end* of the fifth year of Yehoyakim's 11-year reign (according to RASHI; according to the IBN EZRA and RADAK, and according to the VILNA GAON in Imrei No'am, Rosh Hashanah 3a, it was the *beginning* of his fifth year -- see Insights).
  (3) That year was counted for both kings, which is what the Gemara calls "Shanim Mekuta'os" (half years which were counted as full years for each of the two kings).
  (4) There were 22 years to Evil-Merodach's reign besides the "Shanah Mekuta'as" -- the first year that he became king, when his father ruled for the first part of the year. Including that year, he ruled for 23 years, as the Gemara says.
  (5) RASHI to Chabakuk 2:5. Some say that Belshatzar was Evil-Merodach's *brother* (RASHI to Daniel 2:39, 8:27).
  (6) Belshatzar erred in two ways. First, he counted from the beginning of Nevuchadnezar's reign and not from the destruction of the Beis ha'Mikdash. Second, he accidentally added a "Shanah Mekuta'as" (see footnote #4) to Evil-Merodach's reign. He therefore thought that his second year of reign was the 70th year from the time Nevuchadnezar came to power. He waits until his second year passes entirely and his third year begins in order to celebrate. (This is the way Rashi explains our Gemara, see Rashi 11b DH Nasa, Apik, Kama, Chada. This does not contradict what Rashi writes later, on 12a DH Tanya Nami Hachi, see MAHARSHA there. See also Vilna Ga'on in Imrei No'am, Rosh Hashanah 3a, for an alternate explanation of our Sugya.)
  (7) This year was mistakenly counted by Achashverosh as two years, since he counted it both for Daryavesh and for Koresh. It is the second of the "Shanim Mekuta'os."
  (8) Achashverosh thought that his third year of rulership was the 78th year from the time that Nevuchadnezar rose to power. In truth, though, it was the 76th year, because of the two years that were "Shanim Mekuta'os." (See footnotes 4, 7)
  (9) The son of Esther (Tosfos Rosh Hashanah 3b, see Insights to Rosh Hashanah 4a).
  (10) This Daryavesh was also called Artachshasta and Koresh (Rosh Hashanah 3b, but see Tosfos there DH Shenas, DH v'Artachshasta).
  (11) Although Koresh (the first) permitted the Jews to rebuild the Beis ha'Mikdash, he annulled his authorization due to the pressure of the "oppressors of Yehudah and Binyamin."
  (12) It is evident from this chart that the exile lasted "70 years" in a number of ways. The kingdom of *Bavel fell* after 70 years from the time *it came to power*; The Jews *returned to their land* (in the times of Koresh) 70 years after having originally been *exiled from it* in the days of Yehoyachin; 70 years after it had first *been destroyed* the *Beis ha'Mikdash was rebuilt* (VILNA GAON in a footnote to SEDER OLAM RABA).

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• 

  JCanon

  The true count of the years from Cyrus to Christ was stolen by the Papacy, and the false chronology of Ptolemy was substituted for the correct Old Testament chronology. Ptolemy was a heathen astrologer and astronomer who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, about a hundred years after Christ. Ptolemy invented the Ptolemaic system of astronomy that was in use during the Dark Ages. It said that the earth was stationary at the center of the universe, and that the stars and planets revolved around it. He was also the contriver of a chronology that added 80 years to the duration of the Persian Empire.

  http://www.reformation.org/seventy.html

  Here's a reference that claims the Pope adopted the false chronology and that believes 80 fake years were added to the Persian Period. It also dates the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE.....

  The Seventy Weeks "Seventy Weeks (70 times 7 or 490 years), are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: (483 years) the streets shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he all confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" (Daniel 9:24-27). A day equals a year in Bible prophecy. A Week in Scripture is normally 7 days, but can be 7 years: "And Jacob served 7 years for Rachel; . . . Fulfill her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years. And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week:" (Genesis 29:18-28). Over and over in the Old Testament we find this year-day principle: "After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, ever forty days, each day for a year" (Num. 14:34). "I (God) have appointed thee each day for a year" (Ezek. 4:6). The Seventy Weeks is the greatest of all the great prophecies of the Bible. All the ancient world knew about the exact count of years (483) from the end of the Captivity to the coming of Messiah the Prince. King Cyrus was called by name about 200 years before he was born! "That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure; even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid . . . I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, thought thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else . . . He (Cyrus) shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts" (Isaiah chapter 44&45). The army of King Cyrus diverted the Euphrates River, and marched into the city of Babylon while Belshazzar the king was having a drunken orgy. That same night he saw the handwriting on the wall! Imagine the surprise of King Cyrus when Daniel showed him his name in the Book of Isaiah and that he would be the one to end the Babylonian Captivity and send the Jews back to rebuild the Temple. King Cyrus ushered in the Medo-Persian Empire - the second great empire of prophecy. The buying and selling of God's free pardon (indulgences) by Tetzel in Germany, was the very spark that ignited the glorious Reformation and the rebuilding of the spiritual Temple. Martin Luther's The Babylonian Captivity of the Church was the one book that seemed to cause the most grief to the hierarchy! Cover of the book Babylonian Captivity of the Church by Martin Luther. The handwriting on the wall announced the fall of ancient Babylon, and the handwriting on the door announced the fall of modern Babylon. When Jesus began His ministry all the people were in expectation. It was exactly 483 years from the 1st year of King Cyrus. He said to the people: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:5). He was referring to this great prophecy. It was the Divine calendar that Jesus used during His ministry -- the countdown to His death and Resurrection, and He made frequent references to it in the Gospels: "My time is not yet come . . . My time is at hand . . . The hour is come" He was the only person in history who knew the exact hour of His death! The true count of the years from Cyrus to Christ was stolen by the Papacy, and the false chronology of Ptolemy was substituted for the correct Old Testament chronology. Ptolemy was a heathen astrologer and astronomer who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, about a hundred years after Christ. Ptolemy invented the Ptolemaic system of astronomy that was in use during the Dark Ages. It said that the earth was stationary at the center of the universe, and that the stars and planets revolved around it. He was also the contriver of a chronology that added 80 years to the duration of the Persian Empire. Ptolemy lived in Alexandria, Egypt, from about 87-150 A.D. Ptolemy's false astronomical system was overthrown by Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler and Sir Isaac Newton etc., in the 16th century, but his false chronological system remains to this day. The great scientist Galileo was arrested by the Inquisition in Italy, and threatened with torture for saying that the earth moves! Galileo's Inquisitors even used the Bible to try and prove him wrong! To which Galileo replied: The Bible shows us the way to go to Heaven, not the way the heavens go. . . . Galileo's main tormentors were the Jesuits - led by Cardinal Robert Bellarmine. Unfortunately he recanted under the threat of torture, but after signing the recantation he whispered to a friend: The earth still moves!! Galileo helps to overthrow Ptolemy's false astronomy but his chronology remains to this days!! Painting by Spanish artist Goya entitled: "For discovering the movement of the earth." It depicts Galileo chained to immovable blocks. Persian Kings as given in Ptolemy's Canon Persian Kings Length of Reigns Nabonnassarian Era Julian Cyrus reigned 9 yrs. from 210 538 Cambyses reigned 8 yrs. from 219 529 Darius I. Hystaspes reigned 36 yrs. from 227 521 Xerxes reigned 21 yrs. from. 263 486 Artaxerses I. reigned 41 yrs. from 284 465 Darius II. Nothus reigned 19 yrs. from 325 424 Artaxerxes II. Mnemon reigned 46 yrs. from 344 405 Artaxerxes III. Ochus reigned 21 yrs. from 390 359 Arogus or Arses reigned 2 yrs. from 411 338 Darius III. Codomannus reigned 4 yrs. from 413 336 Alexander the Great -------- 417 332 207 This chart is taken from the British Museum Copy of the Tables Chronologiques des Regnes de C. Ptolemaeus, Theon, etc., par M. L' Abbe Halma (published in Paris, 1819). Daniel the Prophet said: "And now I will shew thee the Truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet Three kings in Persia; and the FOURTH shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia" (Greece) (Daniel 11:2). According to the Divine chronology given by God to the Prophet Daniel, there was to be Four kings or emperors over the Persian Empire and then would occur the mighty clash with the he-goat from the West (Alexander the Great), who would overthrow the Persian Empire. "And a mighty king (Alexander the Great) shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will . . . And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. And he came to the ram that had two horns (Media & Persia) . . . and ran unto him in the fury of his power . . . Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken" (Daniel 8:5-8,11:3). Ptolemy (who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, over 100 years after Christ), has 10 kings and the period is lengthened by about 80 years. This greatly confuses the modern student of ancient chronology and overthrows the fulfillment of the 70 Weeks prophecy in the Lord Jesus Christ. 457 B.C. End of Babylonian Captivity. Rebuilding of physical Temple begins. <-483 years-> 26 A.D. 15th year of Tiberius Caesar. The fullness of time. God is manifest in the flesh. Jesus is anointed as Messiah. Binds Satan in the wilderness by overcoming all his temptations. He begins public ministry. 1517 Martin Luther posts his 95 Theses. Rebuilding of spiritual Temple begins. <-483 years-> 2000 A.D. Editor's Note According to this great prophecy, the Jewish nation should have ended in 33 A.D. Jesus prayed for his enemies on the cross and God gave them an extra probationary period of 40 years. In 70 A.D., the Jewish nation did come to a complete end and vanished from history like Edom, Moab and Ammon. The holy nation comprising all who believe in the Risen Christ took its place. Back to Main Menu
• 

  JCanon

  Scholar can you provide the names for the missing 20 years in babylonian chronology to support the 607 date. You said you have 30 years invested in this research...share your finds with us...just the names and dates of the rulers and where this info can be found. I am truly open to dig back into my research if needed, the reason I started digging originally was to bolster my beliefs not fuel my doubts into a raging forest fire.

  Following is the Biblically adjusted reconstruction of the Neo-Babylonian kings. It's slightly different than the 607BCE chronology since it constructs the 70 years of desolation as does Josephus from the last deportation in the 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar rather than the fall of Jerusalem as do the witnesses, thus there is a 4-year discrepancy. But I'll be brief.

  Basically, the reduction in the Neo-Babylonian period was an attempt to steal 30 years of chronology from the Neo-Babylonian kings to extend the reign of Darius I from 6 years to 36 years in order for him to be old enough to be the grandfather of Artaxerxes who was now claiming to be his grandson. Artaxerxes I and Xerxes were the same king.

  Anyway, apparently they could only squeeze out 26 years conveniently, thus when the chronology was laid out, Darius I survived his own death at the battle of Marathon. The reconstructed 26 years is as follows:

  2 years for Nebuchadnezzar: Nebuchadnezzar ruled 45 years rather than 43. This is because the rule of Zedekiah is synonymous with the exile of Jehoiachin. If the 11th year of Zedekiah equalled the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar then there is an 8-year difference. Nebuchadnezzar died in the 37th year of Jehoiachin's exile. Add 8 years to 37 and you get a 45-year rule for Nebuchadnezzar.

  16 years for Evil-Merodach: Josephus in Antiquities claims Evil-Merodach ruled for 18 years. By Biblical and historical deduction from the references to the reigns of Nabonidus and Darius, the Mede, this is in agreement with the Bible's chronology, but this 18 years is arrived at by deduction based upon a 70-year period from the 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar to the 1st of Cyrus. Thus Evil-Merodach is accorded a rule of 18 years rather than just 2 years.

  4 Years for Niglassar. Niglassar'srule of 4 years is left unchanged.

  2 years added to Nabonidus. Nabonidus' rule is extended from 17 years to 19 years based upon several refererences. One is a reference that indicates that Cyrus conquered Astyages in the 6th year of Nabonidus and that is when he began counting his first 20 years before becoming king in Babylon. This historically is misassigned to 559-539BCE, a 20-year interval. But of course, if Cyrus didn't begin to rule in Babylon until the 21st year after he began his rule in Persia and that was the 6th of Nabonidus then that implies Nabonidus had to have ruled 25 years!! He is generally accorded 17 years. I believe the 17-year reference is to his son's rule, Belshazzar who ruled 17 years, whereas his father began to rule 2 years earlier. The 19-year rule is arrived at by subtracting the Biblically required 6-year rule of Darius the Mede who rules over Babylon before Cyrus begins his rule. 6 years from 25 years is 19 years. Nabonidus' rule ended when Darius the Mede and Cyrus conquered Babylon.

  6-year rule of Darius the Mede. Zechariah 1 and 7 show that 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem was the 2nd of "Darius" and 70 years after the mourning for Gedeliah 2 years later was the 4th of Darius. Yet the Jews were still in exile wondering "when would God show mercy to the cities and Jerusalem", that is, allow them to be repopulated and rebuilt. So based upon this and the reference in Josephus that the 70 years of desolation and "servitude" prophesided by Daniel did not begin until the 23rd year, you have harmony with the Bible confirming that the Jews were still in exile and should have been 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem and would not be released to return to their homeland until 74 years after the fall of Jerusalem, that is, in the 6th year of Darius. Thus Zechar 1 and 7 allow us to Biblically assign a 6-year rule to Darius the Mede. Plus there is some supportive absolute chronology involved here. There is an astronomical text that dates the 2nd year of Nabonidus in 479BCE (Nabon. 18) per one interpretation. Thus based upon that astronomical text, you can begin the reign of Cyrus in 475BCE and his rule in Babylon in 455BCE without any Biblical reference.

  So there you have it, the 26 years added back in to the Neo-Babylonian period where they belong, Biblically and astronomically coodinated. Thus three astronomical texts that give specific dating for this period can be used: the VAT4956 dates year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar to 511BCE, the "Strm. Kambyses 400" is used to date the 7th year of Nebuchadnezzar to 541BCE, and the "Nabon. 18" is used to date a rare eclipse event where the Moon set while eclipsed to 479BCE to date the 2nd of Nabonidus that year.

  COLLAPSING THE PERSIAN PERIOD: And just as an adjunct, to collapse the Persian Period of 82 years, you take 1 year from Kambyses (8 to 7), 30 years from Darius I (36 to 6), the entire reign of Xerxes since he was also Artaxerxes (21 to zero), and another 30 years from the extend reign of Artaxerxes III (47 to 17). 1+30=31 31+21=52 52+30 = 82 The difference for the return of the Jews from Babylon in 537BCE is 82 years different from their return per the Bible in 455BCE (537-455=82).

  Canon
• 

  shotgun

  JCanon

  You are always able to post massive amounts of info on chronilogical issues..I guess its your passion for history. The question is with all your research answer these simple questions.

  1) What year was Temple destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar?

  2) How many years did the temple lay desolate until the Jews were released to rebuild it?

  3) How old was Daniel during the third year of Cyrus rule? Approximate....

  4) Do you believe the WT is correct with thier chronology of 2520 years ending in 1914?

  Thanks
• 

  JCanon

  You are always able to post massive amounts of info on chronilogical issues..I guess its your passion for history. The question is with all your research answer these simple questions.

  You know, it has been a passion but chronology is a focus of the witness religion and the X-JW cult are focussed on dismissing 1914 as well but are equally anxious to support the 587BCE fall of Jerusalem based upon the surviving revised records but it's a little suspicious since it is one-sided with a huge dismissal of the slightest hint that this period of chronology could have been revised when there's more than enough suspicion in this area. To summarize the whole thing though, is simply to note that the records were revised two times and very comprehensively including coordination with the Greek historical revisions and the current academic take on the chronology is simply what they have explored in the records left remaining. But my research develops the critical Biblical chronology throughout the period and finds the parallel astronomical events that were left in the revised records that give us the original chronology, so no one can challenge it now. It persists because apparently overturning the chronology now that had been believed to be reliable probably opens up too many academic cans of worms, including the challenge to revamp the Classical Greek Period which has sort of been galvanized and mythologized by the Europeans.

  1) What year was Temple destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar?

  529BCE based upon the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar per the Bible, the only record of that event besides Josephus who alternatively dates it in the 18th year because of the revisions. That can be arrived at via 29CE as 483 years after the 1st of Cyrus when the "word went forth to rebuild Jerusalem" or simply by now using the specific astronomical dating in the VAT4956 which gives both 511BCE and 568BCE for year "37 of Nebuchadnezzar" Dating year 37 in 511BCE sets the 19th year in 529BCE as well. Dating Cyrus' 1st year in 455BCE, adding 70 years to get to the last deportation in the 23rd year in 525BCE (455 +70=525BCE) also dates year 19 in 529BCE. So now there is no conflict between the Bible and some of the critical astronomical text references from the secular records themselves. The double-dating, of course, proves the Persians revised the chronology and gives us the absolute reference to the original dating. Big surprise it's the same timing as the Bible's, right? Which only proves that the Jews didn't lie about their chronology or revise it like the pagans did; something you must presume if you simply take the pagan chronology for face value and don't explore the revisionism issues.

  2) How many years did the temple lay desolate until the Jews were released to rebuild it?

  74 years! As I noted above, the last deportation is where the 70 years clicks in. Some "poor people" were left in the land to harvest the crops after the destruction. Gedaliah was appointed at some time afterwards but it is not specifically known when, but he was not killed until the 20th year. We know that because of Zech. 1 and 7 which shows a 2-year gap from the time Jerusalem fell and the mourning began. 70 years after the fall of Jersualem ends in the 2nd of Darius the Mede and 70 years after mourningin the 7th month for Gedaliah ends in the 4th of Darius. But the Jews are still in exile at the time! If they didn't begin the 70-year prophesied "servitude" until the last deportation, then they should have still been in exile at this time with 2 more years to go. Thus we know that Darius the Mede per the Bible not only ruled for 6 years but was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar, and thus a legitimate Babylonian prince and king though his father was a Mede. That is why 2 Chronicles specifically says the exile ends "when the royalty of PERSIA (i.e. Cyrus) begins to reign"; the only reason why the Bible likely dubbed Darius, "Darius the MEDE" to compare with their dubbing of Cyrus, "Cyrus the PERSIAN".

  3) How old was Daniel during the third year of Cyrus rule? Approximate....

  Good question. And fascinating. When Daniel was deported he was a "child". The Babylonians first deported the smart children who learned the ways of the Babylonians and their language and then gradually converted the vassal people. It took three years before they were presented to the king. Therefore I'm presuming Daniel might have been as young as ten years old when he was deported. He was deported in the accession year of Nebuchadnezzar, so his three-year preparation period was not over yet when he came forward in the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar to interpret the dream; Nebuchadnezzar had not seen him before. Anyway, if we guesstimate that he was 8-10 years old when he was deported, we need only add ten years to the chronology from the accession year of Nebuchadnezzar to the 3rd of Cyrus. The accession year was in 548BCE. Cyrus began his rule in 455BCE so his third year would have fallen in 453BCE. That is 95 years making Daniel 103 to 105 years old. So he was way up there. But that's not entirely out of sync with the chronology of some of those back then. Bob Hope just died at 100. Daniel was known to have insisted upon their own diet of vegetables and whatnot which could explain his longevity, plus the Jews had a lot of rules about their diet. As well, apparently not a small group of the Jews were living past a hundred since some of them remembered the original temple compared to the new one!! That's the same 95 years! I remember the building where we used to have assemblies in Long Beach when I was ten years of age because I was baptized at that time. How many of us remember our kindergarten teachers and classrooms? places we visited again and again even at that young age? That's a five-year-old's memory. So there might have been still a large group of Jews around 100 to 110 who were still around. The Bible, of course, shows Daniel as being extremely frail at the time, so he was quite elderly.

  4) Do you believe the WT is correct with thier chronology of 2520 years ending in 1914?

  That's a mixed question. I do believe the WTS understands correctly that they must extrapolate the "7 times" into 2520 years as the period from when the last Jewish king ruled Jerusalem and when the final king, Jesus Christ, would appear. So yes I believe the 2520 years is correct, but that is dependent upon when we can reliably date the fall of Jerusalem. Secular chronology dates it in 587 or 586BCE, which is corrected by the VAT4956. JWs use the fall of Babylon in 539BCE as a basis for their 607BCE dating and that is now dismissed as well by the VAT4956. Furthermore, they miscalculate the 70 years as beginning in the 19th year with the fall of Jerusalem to get the 607-537BCE period using 537BCE as the date the Jews return to Palestine from Babylon, by as Josephus notes along with the Bible, the 70 years didn't begin until the "last deportation" which was 4 years after the fall of Jerusalem.

  Once you correct the date for the fall of Jerusalem to 529BCE, you get 1992 instead of 1914, but they would have to redate 1914 to 1910 anyway once they correct the 70 years beginning with the last deportation which is simply a direct Biblical and historical error they didn't notice before now.

  But the "7 times" prophecy is not the only chronology dating the second coming, two other prophecies do:

  1) The "1335 days" prophecy which dates the second coming 45 years after the "end of the gentile times" which occurs at 1290 years per Daniel 12, meaning the Messiah would arrive 45 years after the gentiles return control of Palestine to the Jews to fulfill the 1335 days. They relinquished control back to the Jews and thus ended the gentile times in 1947. 1947 plus 45 is 1992, the same as 2520 years from 529BCE. So that's one check.

  2) The second check is the "70 weeks" prophecy which shows that the Messiah at the first and second coming always arrives during the 70th week. The 70th week at the first coming was 29-36CE. If you count down 490-year periods (70 weeks) to our day, the 70th week falls in 1989-1996 with mid-week Passover falling in 1993. Since Christ must "end gift and sacrifice" at the second coming, meaning ending the Memorial/Lord's supper, which was celebrated until he returned when he would eat it one last time and then end that ritual, we know Christ arrives within a year of the mid-week passover of the last 70th week, thus within a year of April 6, 1993. Obviously, the same year as 1992-1993 determined by the correct dating of the fall of Jerusalem in 529BCE.

  I think I had the privilege of doing the chronology research since there is so much pro-587BCE anti-Biblical propaganda out there for some reason and there was a need for a critically developed Biblical chronology as well as to see what was left in the pagan records to support the Bible's chronology. So it's great I can use the astronomical text research to reconstruct the original chronology thus not having to use the Bible to get the 529BCE dating for the fall of Jerusalem. As I noted, the VAT4956 double-dated reference to 511BCE preempts ALL and forces us to redate year 37 to that date, so nothing, absolutely nothing can challenge that reference now. Only the astronomical texts provide "absolute dating"; everything else, including the Bible! is just relative chronology.

  Canon
• 

  shotgun

  Interesting viewpoints Canon.

  A few more questions for you....if you don't want to post them send me a PM.

  Are you still a baptized member in good standing?

  Have you presented any of your research to the Society or Elders?

  One more question?

  If all the information is there in the bible to discern the dates and calculate Jesus second coming and the end of the Gentile times why did Jesus and the Apostles say there is no need to know times or seasons in regard to these issues?

  Thanks