by onacruse 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Bendrr

    Craig, don't ever be afraid to learn that you are or were wrong.

    What's the worst that can happen from gaining new knowledge?


  • seven006


    Iv told you before, someday you will stop being a weenier and you will get to the point of being the person you were born as and supposed to be. Not many people get to that point because they do not even have a clue about the concept. The only thing keeping you from reaching that point is listening too much to the person you were taught to be instead of the person you actually are(We've had this converstion). For the eight-millionth time, you will get there, I know you will. Just give it a little more time.

    Every human is born with only two instinctive fears. The fear of falling, and the fear of loud noises. All other fears are learned. The worst fears are not those that we have physically experienced, but rather, those that have been fed into our minds as traumatic possibilities of the unknown. "If you do that," "then this will happen", action/reaction. That is one of the most basic rules of physics in the universe. In the world of physical reality traumatic results from traumatic actions are a rule more then they are a possibility. "If you put your hand in a flame, your hand will get burnt." That is how we learn. Religious, social, and cultural influences use that physical rule of "action-reaction" to try and create the same response in your mind when attempting to convince you of their "metaphysical action to metaphysical reaction." "Read that book, listen to that apostate, and you will be influenced by demons and die at Armageddon." Action/reaction. Metaphysical possibility stealing a rule from physical reality to try and prove their point

    We learned the physical rules of action/reaction as a child. In the physical realm of reality they are good lessons to learn. Where most have a problem is separating the physical from the metaphysical and the learned physical fear from the unknown and un-provable metaphysical fear. In essence, those who want us to fear the metaphysical traumatic possibilities are trying to keep us as scared little children as opposed to sane adults. That is one of the reasons there are so many arguments on this board. Many here who still have that learned fear of traumatic possibilities cling on to a need to feel they are right. They have to be right or they loose who they think they really are and fear stepping out of their perceived reality. In most cases they don't have much of a clue who they are and they continue to argue so that others might agree with them. They do this so they can feel "their reality" is indeed real. Differences of opinion are merely idiosyncratic to the individual. Since there is an "objective reality" out there, differences of opinion are limited largely to preferences. Many of these preferences are from learned fear and are automatic as opposed to reasoned out conclusions.

    As a child we are always in need to know more. Unfortunately those who teach us do so out of the baggage they were given by their teachers. Most people as they grow older have what the've been taught hard wired into their little brains and automatically close their minds to ideas and concepts that they have been trained to shun out of fear. The main factor in the electricity that energizes that reaction is "learned fear." Once you understand that (like you have just discovered by starting this thread) you can see fear for what it is and begin to re-learn the truth about life, fear, reality, and myth, (the origin of your fear) and put that learned fear in it's proper place.

    As I have told you a hundred times, you are much smarter than the person you have been taught to be.


    Lets go shoot some pool damn it!!!!!!!!

  • hooberus

    onacruse said:

    hooberus, I'm just now beginning to examine some of these issues, so I don't have any thought-out response to your questions.

    If I may ask: you seem not to be "fearful" about exploring such questions. If you ever had a fear like I describe about myself...how did you overcome it? What "broke the ice" for you? (nomb)

    I have never been a JW, so perhaps I haven't had the fear of "opposing literature" instilled in me to deal with. Having become a christian (saved) in my early 20's I have had to deal with many issues such as evolution etc,. I believe that if the christian world-view is correct then it should be able to withstand scrutiny. If I am going to challenge others such as JW's, Mormons, atheists, etc. to examine their world-view then I must do likewise. I believe that our world view is gretly determined by our origins view. Ultimately I feel that we have either our origins from either an ascended ape or a fallen man. I believe that the later is a better explanation. This is not to say that I don't have fears though, my worst fear is that my world-view would turn out to be wrong and that I am wasting my life trying to follow God's lead. But God has been faithful in my life personally, and most of the intellectual attacks that I have seen against the Biblical world-view have not (I believe) stood up well under scrutiny. hope this helps.

  • notperfectyet

    onacruise, great post!

    Fear is what kept me into the witness world for 40 some years. Very sick that fear...knowing that someone who cut you off in traffic would soon be bird food. Knowing we were better than anyone! The whole world! Soon, we would take over the earth, never have to share or give anything, because we sat our butts in so many meetings and gave so much of who we were, could of been, our very souls.......

    I have told a few people of my experiences with graveyards, ( one is a friend of yours ) I walked them for a few years, and thought, they had lives, and knew death was their future, If death is our future, get rid of Hell, heaven and everlasting life with the special ones..that is all the fear we have.

    And who wants to live forever with the special ones?

    Except having a loved one fall in death...the worst fear in the world..and the promise of seeing them again...the worst hope is to to sell literature so you can be with them again.

    So, it all comes down to fear...I have done it all, all the fear...

    I could die tomorrow and not care, as long as it is semi pain less...so death is not a fear.......and for all those graveyards I visited...AWESOME

    I just hope someone puts on my tombstone.." .She loved people"

  • donkey
    And it can drive us to do things that, objectively, are totally irrational...or, prevent us from doing things that are completely rational.

    The very reason people seek a god-creature is because of FEAR. We fear our own mortality and want to believe there is something more than this...it's true for us because we WANT it to be true - we fear knowing that we might not see our dead loved ones again...it can be very destroying to our joy and meaning in life.

    If we are honest with ourselves we have to admit this is true. If we strongly believe in something that is far from being proven - wouldn't you agree that IS irrational? That which has no reational explanation is irrational. How far do you want to separate rationality from evidence?


  • notperfectyet


    I would say to heck with you, to heck with seven and give onacriose a Big Hug, but I can't.

    So I really have to say how much I love all of you, and the fight we are in.


  • bikerchic

    I've always been inquisitive, just have to know how things work and the causes of it all. My Dad used to tell me I am like a cat full of curiosity. Weird thing is once I figure it out, I'm done which is how I left the B'org.......once I figured out G_d wasn't behind it I was gone!

    These tapes Craig and I have been veiwing have really opened my eyes and given me a whole new concept to explore about G_d, the Bible and creation. I have lots of questions, few answers but I feel like I'm on a quest to find out the great secret of life and it's beginnings. The best thing is I have no fear in my search for knowledge except maybe I'll be too old to appricate whatever I find out.


  • GinnyTosken

    CPiolo posted a link to this article two years ago, but I think it's worth posting again:

    Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die: http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html

    I found this section particularly interesting (bolding mine):

    First, skeptics must not expect beliefs to change simply as the result of data or assuming that people are stupid because their beliefs don't change. They must avoid becoming critical or demeaning in response to the resilience of beliefs. People are not necessarily idiots just because their beliefs don't yield to new information. Data is always necessary, but it is rarely sufficient.

    Second, skeptics must learn to always discuss not just the specific topic addressed by the data, but also the implications that changing the related beliefs will have for the fundamental worldview and belief system of the affected individuals. Unfortunately, addressing belief systems is a much more complicated and daunting task than simply presenting contradictory evidence. Skeptics must discuss the meaning of their data in the face of the brain's need to maintain its belief system in order to maintain a sense of wholeness, consistency, and control in life. Skeptics must become adept at discussing issues of fundamental philosophies and the existential anxiety that is stirred up any time beliefs are challenged. The task is every bit as much philosophical and psychological as it is scientific and data-based.

    Third, and perhaps most important, skeptics must always appreciate how hard it is for people to have their beliefs challenged. It is, quite literally, a threat to their brain's sense of survival. It is entirely normal for people to be defensive in such situations. The brain feels it is fighting for its life. It is unfortunate that this can produce behavior that is provocative, hostile, and even vicious, but it is understandable as well.

    The lesson for skeptics is to understand that people are generally not intending to be mean, contrary, harsh, or stupid when they are challenged. It's a fight for survival. The only effective way to deal with this type of defensiveness is to de-escalate the fighting rather than inflame it. Becoming sarcastic or demeaning simply gives the other person's defenses a foothold to engage in a tit-for-tat exchange that justifies their feelings of being threatened ("Of course we fight the skeptics-look what uncaring, hostile jerks they are!") rather than a continued focus on the truth.

    Skeptics will only win the war for rational beliefs by continuing, even in the face of defensive responses from others, to use behavior that is unfailingly dignified and tactful and that communicates respect and wisdom. For the data to speak loudly, skeptics must always refrain from screaming.


  • Hamas

    The only thing to fear is fear itself.

  • freedom96

    One of the biggest fears out there is the fear of change.

    We get so used to things being a certain way, whether it is our surroundings, our enviroment, or our thoughts. When we find out that maybe things aren't quite right, and that requires change, sometimes it can paralize us, to the point of doing nothing.

    Once we can get past the fear of change, then we can go forward more freely and learn and experience what life really is all about.

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