Can Josephus be trusted?

by Pleasuredome 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • mizpah
    mizpah

    Aside from the question of the authenticity of the quotes above, Josephus does give a very vivid and accurate description of the destruction of Jerusalem that seems to confirm the prophetic words of Jesus about the destruction of this city.

    Of course, critics like good lawyers can always question anything and everything on any subject. But one always has to investigate the motivation of these critics before accepting their words.

    We have very few windows to the past except these ancient historians. The other window that has opened up for us in modern times is the archeological one that has brought new understanding ...and, in some cases, confirmation of the Biblical record.

  • gumby
    gumby

    This is the one in question Kenesson,

    The Testimonium Question

    The following passage is found in the extant Greek manuscripts of Josephus (Ambrosianus in the 11th century, Vaticanus in the 14th century, and Marcianus in the 15th century). This passage is quoted by Eusebius in the fourth century: in the Evangelical Demonstration 3.5, in the Ecclesiastical History 1.11, and in the Theophany.

    Antiquities 18.3.3. "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."

    In this simple little paragraph....notice how much about jesus is said.......yet in all his writings......nothing like this was ever mentioned .

    1. Jesus's existence 2. his 'more than human' status 3. his miracle working 4. his teaching 5. his ministry among the Jews and the Gentiles 6. his Messiahship 7. his condemnation by the Jewish priests 8. his sentence by Pilate 9. his death on the cross 10. the devotion of his followers 11. his resurrection on the 3rd day 12. his post-death appearance 13. his fulfillment of divine prophesy 14. the successful continuance of the Christians.

    Give me a break!

    Gumby

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    Yes I have read a number of books and they all discredit those passages refering to Jesus as being added 3 to 4 hundred years after Josephus died.

    Will

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    I'd be very cautious of his chronological statememts.

    Josephus couldn't count from 1 to 10 without missing a number. I'm only using him in my arguments with JCanon because of Canon's opening statements in the 'Why AlanF' thread.

    Interesting. I've found that Josephus is a special case. He can't always be taken face value but he's complex so he makes a good reference on some levels. But he's good for backup references. For instance, you can come up independently with an18-year rulership for Evil-Merodach by deduction of other references. The fact that Josephus claims he ruled 18 years is evidence that that concept existed someplace. Or in the case of how he handles the timing of the Book of Esther, placing her after Xerxes during the reign of Artaxerxes and specifically before Ezra and Nehemiah. This would be considered chronologically incorrect, but it proves that the Hebrew revision of Esther was not around at the time and the Greek version of the text, which shows Esther married to Artaxerxes, was the original version. Thus, as I noted, I'm not actually taking Josephus' word on anything, but what he talks about proves certain points indirectly, and he's great for that. Case in point in regard to the discussion with No One is the reference to the 70 years. Josephus dates it from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus. Whether or not that is correct, it proves he understood that was the application of Jeremiah's prophecy. The fact that this interval is historical makes it a valid reference. So depends on how you use Josephus. He's great for more background than direct reference I've found, however. He was an execellent writer and a brilliant historian though, for sure. JC

  • gumby
    gumby

    But the point is.........had Jesus been who the Bible says he is, Josephus would have given him a little more "air" time than he did. He gave him nothing.... at least anywhere near what his followers claimed of him....that is, if he truely spoke of him at all.

    Gumby

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom
    I'd be very cautious of his chronological statememts.
    Josephus couldn't count from 1 to 10 without missing a number.

    No one --

    !

    Edwin Thiele has a long chapter on "The Variant Figures of Josephus" in the first edition of "The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings." The chapter was dropped in the later editions, so it's a bit of a forgotten gem. Have you ever read it? In his inimitable meticulous fashion, Thiele spends some two dozen pages dissecting all of J's figures for the divided monarchy, making note of his variations from the Masoretic text and recalculating all of his synchronisms and totals.

    Thiele concludes:

    This completes our study of the variant figures of Josephus. In no case have we found evidence that any of his variants is more reliable than the figures of the Massoretic text. We have had evidence, however, that though his pattern of reigns may be simple, it is not sound. The system followed by Josephus was an artificial system -- the system of a late chronologist rather than that of a contemporary scribe. The one recorded the facts as they took place, the other interpreted the data according to his own deductions. The variations of Josephus clearly reveal the struggles then going on in regard to the chronology of the kings. At that early period the Hebrews themselves had already lost the secrets of their own system of chronological reckoning, and their scholars regarded the figures of the kings as having become corrupt and being in need of correction. Modifications were made with the object of securing more harmonious patterns of reigns than were found in the Hebrew text.

    Marjorie

  • no one
    no one

    Thanks for the book reference, Marjorie. I'll have to track it down. Sounds like it would be interesting to read.

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    But the point is.........had Jesus been who the Bible says he is, Josephus would have given him a little more "air" time than he did. He gave him nothing.... at least anywhere near what his followers claimed of him....that is, if he truely spoke of him at all.

    This is a great topic and a good point, but this is also where you "separate the men from the boys".

    You must remember the historical and social context in which Josephus wrote this, namely, a suppressed subculture. Thus just like the slaves in the Americas could not use their own languages or their drums to communicate, they found other ways to do so, primarily in fables which had representations of real events or people. The Jews had to do the same thing. So thus as I said, if you're taking Josephus for "face value" you'll get a different read on the purpose of his history.

    With regard to Jesus himself though, your point is well taken, but only if Josephus was not a political secular Jew but a converted Christian or unbiased historian. It seemed clear to me after reading Josephus extensively that he was typically anti-Christian and thus would have purposely avoided any references to Jesus. That's how you obliterate a historical personage you want to suppress, don't mention them at all. Thus I believe (and I think it has been proven and is the WT's view) that the references in Josephus about the Christ are additions that are not his. But I wouldn't expect a secular Jew to mention Jesus in particular itself in negative terms, but the most profound historical way to do so is not to mention him at all as if he didn't exist. Then later on, depending upon how much other historical information is suppressed you could try to claim "historical Jesus didn't exist" or something like that.

    Thus the critical non-mention of Jesus only shows Josephus did know about him but felt he threatened secular Judaism.

    Now this is not an absolute answer, but it is one of the considerations you must consider for answering your very relative question about why Josephus didn't mention Jesus or the Christian movement. Josephus would not be a pro-Christian writer, and is known to be very pro-secular-Judaism, even being at political odds with some of his fellow Jews. He wanted the Jews to get along with the Romans and the other Jews wanted to break away from Rome. Thev validity of secular Judaism post-Messiah, of course, would require the suppression of the claim Jesus ben Joseph of Nazareth made to being the Messiah. Plus remember, some of the secular Jews knew and believed quite well that this was the promised Messiah but preferred their own position in the current Jewish culture and didn't want changes. You know, the poor and suppressed wanted to be freed so they welcomed the Messiah, but the oppressors didn't want this, they were having the good life. Josephus would be definitely one who wanted to the secular life to continue and his critical omission of takling about the Christian movement would to me confirm that. So one must not consider Josephus non-biased; he definitely is, and some of what he wrote had to be "encrypted" since had he wrote anything contradicting the "official" popular opinion then his works would have never survived. The choices back then were to write the truth and not be published, write the lies of the popular history and surive, OR do a bit of both. Write something that looks like it fits the popular chronology and then tell little meaningless "stories" in your commentary that hold secrets to what really happened and thus some of the true history survives.

    Case in point was Josephus' mention of an eclipse event at the time of Herod's death. Herod's death had been moved back 3 years historically for some reason, not sure why. Josephus knew this and reflected this superficially. But for those who knew better, he provided this eclipse event to correctly date Herod's death in the true year. Thus he came up with this story about the executions, which I'm not sure is really true or not, since it provided far too many details about how to date the eclipse. The story was that these two rabbis rebelled at the time of an annual Jewish Fast. Of all times to rebel. But that provides you with one critical date reference. There are only 4 Jewish fasts and the one occurring closest to Herod's death has to be the 10th of Tebet. The rabbis then get executed a few nights afterward when an eclipse occurred. Again, likely the only reason for mentioning that story and the eclipse was that it could only happen in 1BCE, dating Herod's death on Shebat 2, 1AD.

    And some of it is somewhat entertaining if you read between the lines, which is another rather "Jewish" habit they seem to enjoy. Stretching the imagination of the gentiles. The premise that he gives, for instance, for Herod getting off his death bed, was to deal with the dismissal of the high priest who asked his brother to officiate for him because he had had a dream about a "conversation with his wife" the night before. Now why would that outrage Herod and others? Because this priest was old and here he was having "wet dreams". The Jewish law made you unclean if you spilled semen that day. So it has a comical underpenning to it, that is, this old priest having this wet dream and the populace being outraged by this, so much so that they wanted this priest out! You know, no oversexed high priests for this crowd! Yet, I'm wondering if this is true or whether Josephus just needed to be interesting. To outsiders this just reads normally, but for a Jew it might be funny. At any rate, you have an eclipse event which usually always is inserted in the text to provide secret dating of something associated with Herod's death, which was revised, so clearly Josephus is playing what I call the "Double Dating Game". Turns out, this eclipse confirms Herod died in 1AD just when the Bible indicates he did.

    So, depending upon how you read Josephus determines what you can get from him. I don't believe the story necessarily about what happened with the rabbis or the priest, but I do understand Josephus was trying to secretly date Herod's death to 1AD in contrast with his own textual reference to only a 34-year rule of Herod instead of 37 years, etc.

    So, as you can see, lots of opinions and a complicated mess. But I get LOTS from Josephus on the backside, not as much up front.

    But for sure, he's still enough of a problem that he is now, in my opinion, being "suppressed" as much as possible by the powers that be. Articles to discredit him or why one should ignore him seem a bit too frequent now not to presume he's problematic to the false chronology and history being promoted, which is correct. Josephus has been IGNORED up until now but since he has come into focus of late, likely there will be lots of arguments trying to dismiss him.

    And why? Because as of now, he is the secular source that completely contradicts the reduced Neo-Babylonian revised chronology that reduces that period by 26 years! It's so amazing when he just comes right out and says 70 years from the last deportation to Cyrus! It's such a direct contradiction it's funny, but it REQUIRES the examination of the secular Neo-Babylonian chronology which is what the anti-Biblicalists don't want! So it's kinda comical but expected, certainly.

    Canon

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    JCanon,

    I think your between-the-lines interest in Josephus would prove interesting if you have more to share or point us to. It is very difficult to read Josephus without wondering whether or how he is twisting his sources to compromise textual contradictions or create a version that fits somewhere between a loyalty to Jewish tradition and Roman tradition. (By tradition, I include historical documentation and references.) I see a very conflicted person, torn between loyalties.

    By the way, Josephus' indications along with Luke (who may have been using Josphus or equivalent sources,) might indicate a life of Jesus closer to 6 BC through early or mid-20's AD. Apparently (to me) most of the Gospels intended a date closer to 29 or 30 for the crucifiction, but they were written so far after the facts that a few years before (or even after) wouldn't have been impossible, in which case the more accepted dates for Herod's death or Quirinius' census and an earlier Roman dating for Pilate could also work out. Curiously, John who is the most clear of all the Gospels about presenting a specific timespan for Jesus' ministry has a crowd guessing Jesus age at closer to 50 rather than closer to 30. I guess something must have been taking a toll on that perfect body.

    Gamaliel

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    I see I wasn't very clear above when I mentioned:

    There's another angle, too: that it's not impossible that Josephus added the complimentary phrases about Jesus as a way to explain the current beliefs about Jesus that had already reached Rome very early in the 2nd century. It doesn't mean that he, Josephus, believed them.

    I don't believe there is any way that Josephus could have added the complimentary phrases in the so-called Testimonium, but I wouldn't doubt that a neutral story or more likely a negative story might have been near it in the original. The problem with that theory is that one of the Church Father's like Origen would have dealt with even a negative story if it was there in versions that Origen knew about.

    By "complementary phrases" the only complimentary mention of Jesus that I see as probable in the original, is in the "James passage," where Jesus is mentioned as the one called Christ. It is also complimentary to Christians that Jesus' brother James gets such honorable mention. I can see why this passage might have been ignored by Origen, or was more likely the origin of Origen's idea that Josephus did not himself believe in Jesus as the Christ. I believe the passage about James to be genuine because I can't see why Jewish or Gentile Christians anytime after 100AD would have had any reason to want to connect Jewish riots over the treatment of James to the war of 66/70.

    Gamaliel

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