Demons / Urban Legends! Which Is It????

by Big Jim 55 Replies latest jw friends

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    I would like to continue my earlier thought by discussing the way the mind can produce things that are real, or at least seem as real to us as anything else. Reality is subjective. What is real is whatever our mind tells us is real. Our senses are not the primary means of detecting reality, our minds are.

    For instance, have you ever walked right past someone you know and not noticed them? Maybe your friend says to you, indignantly, 'What, you can't even say hello?' And you respond in surprise, 'Oh, I'm sorry, I never saw you!' Your friend huffs and says, 'Yeah, yeah, you were looking right at me.'

    Our eyes worked, but our mind turned the signal away to some dark corner because it was busy with something else at that moment. Our perception of reality comes from the mind, not our senses.

    Another example: If you have a vivid nightmare, and wake up in a cold sweat, why did your body react with the fight-or-flight response? Because of something your senses were picking up? No, for nothing was actually happening. But your mind told your body something was happening, and thus your reality was formed.

    Another example: Mental illness can produce symptoms that in times past would have been chalked up to demons. Hearing voices, having visions, and the like, can happen to a person with certain types of mental illnesses. Are those voices real to that person? Absolutely real. Is that reality subjective? Of course.

    Another example: If you take LSD, will reality change for you? Yes. Will the world around you be changing, or is it only your mind that thinks it has changed? It is the mind. Your eyes may tell you that you are seeing a monster, but the eyes have been fooled by the mind. Your nose may smell something, but it's just the mind. Mess with the chemical balance of your mind, and your reality changes.

    All of these examples show that something that is "real" to us, because I "saw" it, or "heard" it, or "felt" it, may not necessarily have an outside cause. And yet, and this is the key point, it will seem every bit as real to us as if there were an outside cause. Our senses will be telling us things that are indistinguishable from objective reality. It's real to us, and no one can tell us otherwise. For it really is real, at least to the mind.

    What about more than one person perceiving this reality? Our mind is open to suggestion. In the middle ages, it became common to see the Virgin Mary in vision. Nobody saw aliens. In the twentieth century, visits by the Virgin Mary, while still around, were not as common. But alien visitations sure increased, as soon as science fiction writers began to write about them. If I write a book today about small, intergalactic woodchucks that have pink antennae on their heads, and the book becomes well known enough, pretty soon people will start to see intergalactic woodchucks at the foot of their beds late at night.

    Now, and this is another important point, please do not mistake this message as saying that ALL such events can be explained away as tricks of the mind. Don't be offended and think I'm calling you crazy. I'm not. For one thing, these mind tricks happen to everyone, not just "crazy" people. For another, it's entirely possible that some of these events that have been related were caused by something real, objectively real. That brings me to my final point.

    As Mommie Dark said, we don't know all there is to know about the phsyical universe. Theere may well be unexplained physical forces and phenomena in the world. Perhaps in time science will come to understand these new forces, and then we'll laugh and say, 'Oh, that's what caused those visions!'

    Can you imagine a primitive human's reaction the first time he or she saw ball lightning? Try to tell that person this is a natural force, and you won't be believed. Clearly it was a demon! Or imagine not understanding weather patterns, and being confronted with your first thunderstorm. Can't tell you that's not the gods!

    One day, we may feel the same about the stories in this thread. What at one time seemed like demon stories turned out to be nothing more than ___________, where that blank is yet to be filled in with a scientific explanation.

    So remember, just because something was real to you (and I'm sure it was real to you), it doesn't mean your senses actually picked up on something, for it could have been a trick of the mind and there's absolutely no way for you to know the difference. Or maybe you did actually perceive something outside your mind, but what that is may be something entirely different from demons.

  • dark clouds
    dark clouds

    there are energies that exist in nature that simply are. . .

    everything in the universe is natural or is derived from what was once natural
    that which we label supernatural is simply what we dont
    comprehend and cant explain
    ---Buckland

    i happen to agree with this

  • princecharmant
    princecharmant

    Fascinating subject, this.

    This is from my youthful days. A woman lived next door to my grandmother. Remember this is a rural setting in tropical Africa; the two houses are separated by a live hedge; you could peer through to see the woman sitting on the veranda, a few metres away. That woman had voices speaking to her that we could all hear, voices telling her things audibly, comprehensible things (like "XXXX[woman's name]get up"). If she didn't obey the voices, she'd be hurled up brutally. She was a frail woman, she was no vintroloquist, she was visibly tortured because the voices spoke day and night and hardly gave her a respite. This is no heresay. I witnessed this with my own eyes. Everyone in that village knew and heard those voices. It was no collective dementia, it was as real as you breathing now.

    There are intelligent beings out there my friends, but our eyes simply cannot see them. It makes me laugh when some people insist on catching those beings on film: how can you photograph what you can't see? You can see the manifestation of the being, what "it" does, but you can't see the being because it is invisible. Folks, there are far too many things in the world that we cannot rationalize.

    the charming prince

  • Mommie Dark
    Mommie Dark

    You said, "she was no vintroloquist".

    With all due respect, how do you know she wasn't? Whether consciously or not, she could very well have been the source of the voices. Who ever tested her medically or tried to discern the reason for the occurrences?

    It's just easier to say, 'oh, yes, see, DEEMINZ!' and shudder.

  • princecharmant
    princecharmant

    Mommie Dark,

    Those are first hand experiences I lived. In the rurals of Africa unlike where you may be writing from, being tested "medically" is usually out of the way. I have seen vintroliquists before and even if it is possible to be fooled, here was no such case. Those voices not only spoke to everyone's hearing, but forced her to act beyond her frail frame. There were cases where four men could not keep her on her back because she had to obey her "orders". It is all too simple wanting emperical proof for such phenomena. The proof I ever needed were my eyes and ears.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    This is a subject that I find easy resolution with.

    Perception IS reality. If someone perceives it, then to them at least, it is real.

    However, there is a great deal of difference between repeatable scientific evidence and personal anecdotal evidence.

    This does not mean that those of you who have had paranormal experiences are lying. However, you cannot prove your experiences in a scientific way.

    Just as it would be unreasonable for 'scientific evidence seekers' to expect 'anecdotal experiencers' to disbelieve the evidence of their own eyes, it would be unreasonable for the 'anecdotal evidencers' to expect 'scientific evidence seekers' to disbelieve the evidence of our own logic on without evidence.

    If you want to prove paranormal healing, get 300 people with a terminal disease, leave 100 alone (the control), treat 100 with a spoof healer, and 100 with a 'real' healer. Each group would be comprised of equal numbers of believers, agnostics and sceptics. If there is a significant difference in the results you might have proved something.

    If you want to prove precognition, then take 100 people who believe they can fortell the future and compare their predictions with 100 people who are just guessing. If there is a significant difference in the results you might have proved something.

    If you want to prove the existance of ghosts, get one piece of evidence.

    Ditto evil spirits.

    Apply the same principles to other paranormal claims.

    Remember, at no point am I saying that people who experience the paranormal are lying, or that the events didn't happen to them. Obviously some people are lying about the paranormal, but I'm happy to exclude them from the conversation. If you feel it was real, I'll accept it was real for YOU.

    But, to those with anecdotal experiences it is important to realise that it was real to YOU. Other people who haven't perceived what you have might not be able to believe in the paranormal unless you can prove it scientifically, WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN DONE.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit