ok what facts can i use to prove to my elder father that wtbs is wrong

by primitivegenius 22 Replies latest members adult

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    Here is a little something I put together....

    Are Jehovah’s Witnesses False Prophets?

    What does the bible say?

    *** Reference Bible Deuteronomy 18:20-22 ***

    20 "'However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it . You must not get frightened at him.'

    *** Reference Bible

    15 " Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them...

    Have Jehovah’s Witnesses and the “Faithful and Discrete Slave” ever made a false prediction of Jesus’ Coming?

    *** Awake! 1993 March 22 pp.3-4 Why So Many False Alarms? ***

    Jehovah's Witnesses , in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions 'in the name of Jehovah.' Never did they say, 'These are the words of Jehovah.'

    1889 "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 98-99, 1889)

    1908 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A. D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1908 ed.; p. 99)

    1917 "And the mountains were not found. Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920. And the mountains were not found. Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy." (The Finished Mystery, 1917 edition, p. 258)

    1917 "It is the Day of Vengeance, which began in the world war of 1914 and which will break like a furious morning storm in 1918." (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 404)

    1920 '...we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of from the condition of death, being resurrected' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 88)

    1920 'Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 89-90)

    1922 "The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the "time of the end" began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874." (The Watchtower, March 1, 1922)

    1922 '1914 ended the Gentile Times...The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures...by then the great crisis will be reached and probably passed' (Watchtower Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262)

    1923 '1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures...the Christian has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the Scriptures reveal) upon which to base his faith in the coming deluge' (Watchtower April 1, 1923, p. 106)

    1925 "The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything." (Watchtower 1925, p. 56)

    1940 The Kingdom is here, the King is enthroned. Armageddon is just ahead. The glorious reign of Christ that shall bring blessings to the world will immediately follow. Therefore the great climax has been reached. Tribulation has fallen upon those who stand by the Lord. (The Messenger, Sept. 1940, p. 6)

    1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end" to the world, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that He was using and guiding them.'' (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968)

    1989 Jehovah’s prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: “This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.” (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment...

    The Watchtower 1984 May 15 pp. 6-7

    1989 "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century." (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1989, p. 12 [bound volume changed "20th century" to "day"])

    Jehovah's prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: 'This generation (of 1914) will by no means pass away until all things occur.' (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son's words in a relatively short time." {WT 6}

    Do Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be a prophet of Jehovah? Do Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Jehovah God speaks through them?

    *** Awake! 1986 June 8 p.9 "Would That All Were Prophets!" ***

    You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets , or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah's Witnesses.

    *** Watchtower 1964 June 15 pp.365-6 Jehovah, the God of Progressive Revelation ***

    THE KINGDOM'S ESTABLISHMENT

    22 As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale . All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it. The abundance of spiritual food and the amazing details of Jehovah's purposes that have been revealed to Jehovah's anointed witnesses are clear evidence that they are the ones mentioned by Jesus when he foretold a "faithful and discreet slave" class that would be used to dispense God's progressive revelations in these last days. [...]

    23 The holy spirit of Jehovah is working mightily today! How thankful we should be for the provision God has made of this slave class, the modern spiritual remnant, as they faithfully dispense the revealed truths of Jehovah ! With these rich truths to light the way, Christians do not grope in this dark, jungle-like world as do the masses of people in Christendom and heathendom alike. To the contrary, Jehovah's faithful witnesses have been progressively brought to an understanding of Jehovah's purposes, which are clearer now than ever before in history . Their organization, being patterned after the first-century Christian congregation, is blessed by Jehovah. He has prospered their work of preaching "this good news of the kingdom" in 194 different lands to date. Each year they gather into the organization tens of thousands of new ministers, clearly a product of Jehovah's spirit operating through his invisible King-Son and his angelic representatives, then through his faithful slave class on earth today.- . 24:14.

    *** Watchtower 1964 October 1 p.601 Pay Attention to Prophecy ***

    for God has on earth today a prophetlike organization , ... Jehovah's anointed witnesses on earth.

    *** Watchtower 1965 June 1 p.352 Questions from Readers ***

    New features of the work have required new methods, which has meant revisions and changes from time to time in organization instructions, but it is all a part of the advancement of Jehovah's theocratically controlled organization under the immediate direction of Jehovah God himself. Therefore, these revisions and changes are themselves fully theocratic, so they do not alter in any way the fully theocratic structure of the organization.

    *** Watchtower 1972 August 1 p.458 Loving Oversight of the Congregation of God ***

    THEOCRATIC APPOINTMENT IN THE CONGREGATION

    10 But who is at the head of this rapidly expanding congregation, you ask? Is it some brilliant, farsighted man, some human who is a master organizer? No, for the Christian congregation is operated theocratically, meaning that it recognizes the leadership only of Jehovah God as exercised through his Son and enthroned King, Jesus Christ. (Isa. 33:22; Heb. 12:2; Rev. 19:16) This is what makes the congregation theocratic in structure, adhering to God-rule. If an organization is to be fully theocratic, it must be directed and controlled altogether by God and by the forces he operates. It is vital, therefore, that each one recognize that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Christian congregation, as well as showing proper regard for those on earth who have been theocratically appointed to positions of oversight.-Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Cor. 11:3; Acts 14:23.

    *** Watchtower 1981 February 15 p.19 Do We Need Help to Understand the Bible? ***

    OUR VIEW OF THE "SLAVE"

    We can benefit from this consideration. If we have once established what instrument God is using as his "slave" to dispense spiritual food to his people, surely Jehovah is not pleased if we receive that food as though it might contain something harmful. We should have confidence in the channel God is using . At the headquarters from which the Bible publications of Jehovah's Witnesses emanate there are more mature Christian elders, both of the "remnant" and of the "other sheep," than anywhere else upon earth.

    *** Watchtower 1981 December 1 p.27 The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter ***

    Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit-anointed ones ... Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.

    *** Watchtower 1983 February 15 p.12 You Can Live Forever in on Earth-But How? ***

    A third requirement is that we be associated with God's channel, his organization. ... Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.

    The Watchtower recognizes the truth as belonging to Jehovah, and not to any creature. The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men. No man’s opinion is expressed in The Watchtower. God feeds his own people, and surely God uses those who love and serve him according to his own will.

    (Watchtower 1931 November 1 p. 327)

    Jehovah God is therefore the only Supreme Court of interpretation of His inspired word.... To such remnant of faithful servants of Jehovah God Christ Jesus has entrusted all “his goods”, or earthly interests of the Kingdom. This does not signify that the faithful remnant or society of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses are an earthly tribunal of interpretation, delegated to interpret the Scriptures and its prophecies. No; Christ Jesus the King has not entrusted that office to them. THE SUPREME COURT STILL INTERPRETS, thank God; and Christ Jesus, the Court’s official mouthpiece of interpretation, reserves to himself that office as head of Jehovah’s “faithful and wise servant” class. He merely uses the “servant” class to publish the interpretation after the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it.

    (Watchtower 1943 July 1 p. 202, 203)

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    May 15, 1957 Watchtower

    If we have become thoroughly convinced that

    this is God's organization that he is using

    and guiding and directing his people, *we

    shall not be unsettled by anything that happens*.

    ****

    "Approved association with Jehovah's Witnesses requires accepting the

    entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those

    Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah's Witnesses." (The Watchtower, 1986 April 1 p31)

    ****

    From four to six quarts of warm water injected into the colon

    is what constitutes an internal bath. It should be taken every

    day for at least six months...(Golden Age, 3/31/1920 p.437-8)

  • cat1759
    cat1759

    OH my god I am roaring Gary.

    My mom actually thought that was important and she was not even born in the 20's. I won't expound. Just rolling that this was the christian thing to do.

    I am forwarding this to my mother. Thanks for the enlightment indeed.

    Cathy

  • Buster
    Buster

    Analysis said (among others):

    The light is always getting brighter

    We need to wait on Jehovah to correct the problems

    I consider those two the guiding principals of the dubbies. Basically, they boil down to "Do what I say now. not what I said yesterday, and not what I may say tomorrow." Once JWs accept this, then just about anything the WTS says works for them.

    My mother once came home from an assembly during the early 80's and told the family that a speaker had told the audience that we would all be better off 'being wrong with Jehovah tha right without Him.' (I can't come up with exact quotes all these years later).

    But Simon had a nice suggestion some time back. He suggested that one could ask what the Society would need to do that would cause one to doubt. If they answer something specific, the odds are pretty good that the WTS has done it already. If they answer 'nothing', then walk away and let the mindlessness of that response settle in.

  • primitivegenius
    primitivegenius

    yeah cat i have to agree .......... and i was intending to take my time and do just that. i have been not going to meetings regularly for over a year and only when i went home to visit or to conventions and the like. thought i had my fade going perfectly untill he called in the locals on me. i was just hopeing for some points that others had used in this situation to show how the wtbs are liars or doing things that are NOT what jah would want....... and btw THANKS ELSEWHERE loved the stuff you posted, and what everyone else did. ive read stuff and a friend of mine has sent me tons of stuff in the past to help convince me........... but my mind doesnt store things as good as id like lol. basicly i just want to know what points others like to point out. lol and gary ......... damn thats funny lol

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    "Also, we must not only publish books about or in explanation of the Bible;
    we must also help the Bible readers to understand these Bible-explaining books,"
    (The Watchtower Nov. 15, 1961 p.694)




    the congregational meetings because the Bible says so."
    (The Watchtower July 1, 1952 p.414)




    (The Watchtower May 15, 1960, p.295)


    The Watchtower 1985 April 1 p.30
    "Jehovah's Witnesses have never believed that the Kingdom of God will be on earth."


    "If we are to walk in the light of truth we must recognize not only
    Jehovah God as our Father but his organization as our mother."
    (The Watchtower, May 1, 1957, p. 274)


    "So, heavy drinkers do not qualify for special service privileges."
    Proclaimers P.182


    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day;
    Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish

  • garybuss
    garybuss






    (Watchtower, 12/1/91 p.7)


    Well-meaning friends and relatives may oppose your study of the Bible,
    Some may fear that you will become involved with a cult or will turn into a fanatic.
    (Knowledge, p.22)


    Discipline that exceeds reasonable limits or that goes beyond the
    intended purpose of correcting and teaching surely is exasperating.
    (Knowledge, p.148)

    True, almost all children will at first chafe at discipline.
    (Knowledge, p.148)


    "the Scriptures justify the 'war strategy' of hiding true facts
    from the enemy."
    (The Watchtower May 15, 1960, p.295)


    *** w95 2/1 7 Why Is It Time to Decide? **
    God will not tolerate a religion's corruption just because it boasts of its antiquity.


    *** w95 2/15 16 Saved Alive Through the Great Tribulation ***
    It is exciting to contemplate survival of the end of this system of
    things and the possibility of never having to die.


    *** w95 2/15 15 Saved Alive Through the Great Tribulation ***
    The great crowd must maintain their righteous standing before the Son of man without letup,


    *** w95 5/15 21 Flashes of Light-Great and Small (Part 2) ***
    A bright flash of light was seen in 1962 . . .


    This organization will survive Armageddon into God's new world.
    (The Watchtower July 1, 1995, p.21)


    And the abuse of alcohol is but one indication of lack of self-control.
    (The Watchtower, April 15, 1985, p.21)


    "Discipline that exceeds reasonable limits or that goes beyond the
    intended purpose of correcting and teaching surely is exasperating."
    (Knowledge, p.148)


    *** w52 2/1 95 Questions from Readers ***
    For the sake of the record, let us say that we are not medical advisers.


    *** w52 2/1 96 Questions from Readers ***
    We are not professionally trained doctors, and do not
    advise on health matters except as they may involve
    Scriptural issues, such as in the case of blood transfusions.


    "If you are one of the Jonadabs or one of the
    "great crowd" of good-will persons you will
    like to mingle with the animals"
    (The Watchtower, Jan. 15,1952 p.63-4)


    "Evidently, Babylon the Great, although "fallen", is still functioning"
    (The Watchtower - May 1, 1989, p.5)

    "So, then, why can we be so sure that you can live forever in paradise on earth?
    Why can we believe that everlasting life is not just a dream?"
    (Live Forever WTBTS 1989, p.7)

    "All of us are aging, and life's end is approaching. That is not fatalistic.
    Dying is a fact of life."(Save Life WTBTS 1990 p.23)


    "Error always seeks the dark, while truth is enhanced by
    the light. Error never desires to be investigated. Light
    always courts a thorough and complete investigation."
    - Joseph F. "Judge" Rutherford,
    _Millions Now Living Will Never Die_, p. 13


    "Just think, brothers, there are only about 90 months left before 6000 years
    of man's existence on earth is completed...The majority of people living
    today will probably be alive when "Armageddon breaks out."-
    KINGDOM MINISTRY March 1968 P.4


    "In the late 1960's, Jehovah's Witnesses were declaring the
    good news with a feeling of expectancy and urgency."
    (Proclaimers, p.104)


    "Spacious Kingdom Halls, expensive sound equipment, Assembly Halls, and
    attractive Bethel homes bring glory to God and offer silent witness that he
    is blessing his people." 10/15/93 WT, page 11


    It is wise to avoid making purchases from or employing
    the services of individuals or businesses known to be
    illegal in their operation.
    (Pay Attention, p.137)


    If the elders learn of illegal activity or of some serious
    crime on the part of a member of the congregation, they
    may not be obliged by law to report the offender or the
    offense to secular authorities.
    (Pay Attention UNIT 5 (c) - p. l37)


    Normally, a close relative would not be disfellowshipped
    for associating with a disfellowshipped person unless there
    is spiritual association or an effort made to justify or
    excuse the wrongful course.
    (Pay Attention UNIT 5 (a) p. 103)


    It is quite immaterial the day Christmas is celebrated; we may properly join.
    WT 12/15/1903, pg. 3290


    Don't quibble about the date; join in with the world and celebrate Christmas.
    WT 12/1/1904, pg. 3468


    Christmas is so important, regardless of the date.
    WT 12/15/1926, pg. 371


    "The blood in any person is in reality the person himself. ... poisons
    due to personal living, eating and drinking habits ... The poisons
    that produce the impulse to commit suicide, murder, or steal are in
    the blood. Moral insanity, sexual perversions, repression,
    inferiority complexes, petty crimes - these often follow in the
    wake of blood transfusion." Watchtower 9/15/61 page 564


    "If assaulted, a Christian could ward off blows, or even escape
    from the attacker by temporarily incapacitating him." (Pay Attention 1981, p.150)


    "We do not want to be assisting and encouraging new ones to come in,
    so to speak, through the front door, while our children go out through
    the back door as they reach the teen years." (Pay Attention 1979 p.119 Unit 7b)


    "Leading questions on the basis of what a person already knows
    can aid you to direct his mind so that he comes to a correct conclusion."
    (Pay Attention 1977 p.28)



    "What arrangements have you made for the sisters to share in the
    service when you are not able to be there?" (Pay attention 1977 p. 24)

    "A Christian woman threatened with rape should resist by
    screaming and physically resisting." (Pay Attention 1981. P.150


    "It is wise to avoid making purchases from or employing
    the services of individuals or businesses known to be
    illegal in their operation."
    (Pay Attention, p.137)


    w68 5/1 p. 286-7
    Questions from Readers
    * When Jesus Christ was a man on earth, did he wear a beard? - K.A., U.S.A.
    Biblical evidence is the most reliable testimony to be found on this
    question, and a recent careful review of what it says indicates that
    Jesus did indeed have a beard.




    some brothers and sisters arrive at the Kingdom Hall with a
    strong smell of alcohol on their breath."
    (The Watchtower Dec. 15, 1996, p. 29)


    "In many lands Kingdom Halls are filled to capacity for these meetings.
    Yet in a number of countries, meeting attendance has declined. Why, do you think?"
    (The Watchtower, Dec. 15, 1996, p. 15)


    *Announcements
    "Beginning with the 1995 district conventions and the September 1995
    circuit assemblies and special assembly days, there will be no food served."
    (Our Kingdom Ministry, Dec. 1994, p. 7)



    "Note: Reports have been received where elders have
    revealed confidential matters to their wives or others in
    the congregation." (Pay Attention 1977 p.65)


    *** w95 2/15 9 There Will Be a Resurrection of the Righteous ***
    Many who had hoped to be among the "millions"
    who would never die have indeed died.
    (The Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1995, p.9)


    "Stop chewing food as you need the saliva for your food." ?
    The Golden Age, Nov. 12, 1929, p. 107.


    I didn't FIND fault with the organization, it was there all along, I
    just stopped ignoring it. (Doc Bob 12 '96)

  • avengers
    avengers

    Keep on exposing. This is just GREAT!!!!

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Prim,

    Here something that is really simple. I copied it from a thread I started a few months ago. It is very simple reasoning that might get your father thinking.

    I think a big mistake that some make in trying to get a JW to see they are not in the one and only true religion is to argue about Bible doctrine.As soon as you use the any Scriptures they see it through WT interpretation filter, only the most open-minded will be able to entertain an interprtaton contrary to WT, and with 5 meetings of indoctrination a week very few are that open.

    Another approach may be perhaps better, it will not have very quick results, but it could put a crack in the thick shell the WT has formed around them.

    Here the approach I used at the mall when witnessing to the JWs (two women) at their magazine stand.

    As I was looking at the books I mentioned that my son-in-law was a JW (would not tell them that I used to be one). And also that they are nice people but there is one thing I don’t agree with and that is that they think they are the only ones that are going to be saved and that all the other people that believe in Christ are doomed for destruction.

    Of coarse they have their clever answers that are designed to deflect such objections such as "only God can read hearts" and the like, if you press them some more, which I did, they will answer to the effect that yes they believe they do have the only true religion, which they did, and then went to explain why they felt that way.

    I then proceeded to give an example, of a family who believed in Jesus Christ and had a genuine faith that moved them to help the poor, be good parents, work hard, live good moral upright lives, basically follow the Bible, and I then asked them. "Is God going to destroy them just because they didn’t join your religion?" They then proceeded to make typical JW comments "you got to know the truth blah blah blah" you know the common JW rhetoric. So I asked them a couple more questions "do you think to get salvation you have to get 100% right on some Bible quiz"? "Say for instance a person like myself believes in the trinity is God going to destroy me because I guessed wrong on this subject"? "Is having this or other wrong understandings a sin that merits everlasting destruction"? I could tell they were starting to get uncomfortable. I mentioned that we all have wrong ideas about God and the Bible JWs included, and since they didn’t have the 100% of the truth, then what’s to stop God from destroying JWs as well.

    The older lady mentioned that the JWs were humble and correct wrong understanding and so that is why God won’t kill them with the rest, because they corrected their mistakes. I said "you admit that your group has had wrong understanding in the past, so you must also know that you still must have some understandings that in the future will need correction". To which they agreed, "So then why is God not going to destroy JWs for wrong understanding but use this as a reason to destroy the others who have a genuine faith in Jesus"? " Don’t you see the double standard here"? The two women were getting uncomfortable.

    I think the best approach is not to try and get them to see their interpretation is wrong, but simply to reason with them on the fallacy that the WT has instilled in them that to get salvation you need to get a high score of 95% or better in a Bible quiz.

  • gumby
    gumby

    Your father believes the Organisation is Jehovahs true channel for dispensing lifesaving messages.

    To take out THAT foundation is the best place to start.

    To do this, you ask your father WHO Charles Taze Russell (whom the society confesses was used by Jehovah to turn the light back on in the 20th century).........got his spiritual enlighment from? Let him answer you and take some time if he needs to.

    If he answers at all he will say" from nobody........he did it on his own with Jehovahs guidence."

    That answer is actually in the "Jehovahs Witnesses in the divine purpose" book......an old green book.

    Yet that claim plainly contradicts ALL of the societys other claims. They claim Jehovah has ALWAYS had a SLAVE CLASS on earth at any given time since Pentecost and each slave class passed it on to the next. This would mean that C.T. Russell would have had to have "hooked up" with that slave class to learn what he taught. He did NOTHING of the sort. He "independantly took the bible off the shelf and did not look through ANY sectarian glasses" according to the book mentioned, and the" 1000 year book"......a yellow book. He and a few others had an independant bible study which grew.

    If your dad doubts it.......it can all be proven in their OWN literature.

    Gumby

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