Jehovah’s Witness Logical Fallacies.pt1

by Brummie 27 Replies latest jw experiences

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  logansrun

  Brummie,

  You bring out many accurate points, but you still fail to see mine. Many ex-JWs generalize the behavior of individual JWs as being true of the whole. This is simply not the case. If an elder is nasty with me and says something that is not appropriate that is not really the Society's fault.

  There is a sense of distortion -- sometimes gross distortion -- that happens in the minds of some former dubs. I realize there are psychological reasons for this, but it behooves people to be as accurate and realistic as possible in their thinking. I stand by my post.

  Bradley
• 

  SixofNine

  Logans,

  If an elder is nasty with me and says something that is not appropriate that is not really the Society's fault.

  The society cannot control the minute to minute action of elders, no. But, Jehovah could use imperfect men and not have these kinds of problems. He could train them to be loving and kind and gentle. He could toss out the rule book, or, better yet, make it a useful, helpful tool. He could give them an understanding of human pyschology. He could make sure that men with outrageously dangerous personality flaws were never in a position of power in the congregation.

  But he doesn't, and the society doesn't. Their bad and our lookout.
• 

  logansrun

  Core,

  Thank you for bringing out your experience as an elder. It shows that not ALL congregational matters are like star-chamber hearings. Balance, balance, balance....will this board ever find it?

  Bradley
• 

  logansrun

  6/9,

  But, Jehovah could use imperfect men and not have these kinds of problems.

  I agree -- but that would mean they would have to be a non-Christian religion. Ain't gunna happen.

  He could train them to be loving and kind and gentle.

  Aha -- but the Society feels it does train them. It's called "Kingdom Ministry" school. You may not agree with the answer, but you can't say they don't have an answer...(and there are some elders who are loving and gentle)

  He could toss out the rule book, or, better yet, make it a useful, helpful tool.

  You mean the Bible? Ain't gunna happen.

  He could give them an understanding of human pyschology.

  They say all the psychology they need is in the Bible. Get rid of it? Ain't gunna happen.

  He could make sure that men with outrageously dangerous personality flaws were never in a position of power in the congregation.

  Now this is a good point, although there are few elders I would genuinely categorize with "outrageously dangerous personality flaws." Outrageous, yes. Ineffective, yes. Harmful, yes. But not "outrageously dangerous." A little over the top there sixy.

  But, why would Jah's spirit ever appoint a man who was less than qualified? Ah, the JWs have their answer for this as well. He wasn't really appointed by God's spirit! All the pub's are to assume --no, believe -- that the elders were appointed directly by Jah until proven otherwise (ie, deleted). What a wonderful system!

  Bradley
• 

  HoChiMin

  Brummie;

  Most JW's will never have to deal directly with the "Society" ever. Not even most elders will ever venture into the realm of direct contact with the service dept. in Patterson, NY the closest contact for local elders will be the "CO" the traveling representative as they are known. It's the elite of the local body that will occasionally make a call or know someone there. The service dept. will not even give out their names only a desk number on any correspondence verbal or written

  When one finally is shown, first hand, how cold they really can be it's an eye opener. It made me feel like I was defending a big bad ass gangster and trying to make him look sweet. I couldn't do it for long once I realized what position I had been put into.

  The average JW will defend the unknown only from what they are told through their very tight controlled information put out by the very organization it defends. (does circular reasoning come to mind?) I'm so glad I'm out of that loop.

  HCM
• 

  SixofNine

  I guess I don't see your point at all Bradley, unless it is just such a simple point that I instinctively feel it goes without saying.
• 

  logansrun

  Let me reiterate myself on this topic. I am NOT saying the Society is faultless in it's treatment of it's members. Good God, not by a long shot. Nor are they free from blame when it comes to the individual actions of it's members (especially it's elders) who are simply complying with the operatives of the GB. The Society is to be blamed for this and we have every right to point that out.

  What I'm getting at is that often there is great exaggeration of certain problems and there is a not so subtle shortsightedness in many former member's "analysis" of the religion. It's just not so simple, folks. Often I see threads that say in no uncertain words that "the GB are a bunch of disgusting liars that are completely evil." The situation is so much more complicated than that. We (as a group) need to be more aware of what we think and say.

  Bradley
• 

  petespal2002

  Bradley,

  I think I see what you are getting at and the points you are making. A big question must be, are ex-JW's trying to get current members to leave and follow them (not 'them' as in following men, but as in their general example of leaving the society)? If this is the case then one must weigh ones words carefully. Sweeping generalisations such as you mentioned are not going to have any effect. As they themselves say, attacking someones deep seated and long held belief systems without offering any form of replacement or support network aint going to work!

  The fact that elders can vary so widely from place to place in their treatment of a similar situation surely points to personal culpability, not one that can be laid on the GB's doorstep. I faced a judicial comittee where one elder told the chairman 'stop behaving like an elder and act like a human.' Does that therefore mean that it is the eldership that causes the problems, as if by laying downa figurative mantle totally different things would occur? Or does the actions caused by that mantle stem from the flawed human beneath?
• 

  Brummie

  Balance, balance, balance....will this board ever find it?

  You see, you are doing it again, you are over generalising "this board" to promote your veiw as being the standard of balance. Will we ever find a balance like yours? I guess you hope we do huh.

  What I'm getting at is that often there is great exaggeration of certain problems and there is a not so subtle shortsightedness in many former member's "analysis" of the religion.

  Bradley, this is my point also. Except I think the exaggeration is coming from your quarters. You set an unlikely scenerio, apply it to many of us and then you refute it! For example. You say "apostates" accuse the Society for things that the Society is not guilty of. "Apostates" look at the shady actions of the local elders and then accuse the Society for those actions. Where is your evidence for us "apostates" doing this? Where did any one of us say "Sister so&so said yada yada, hence, the Society is not the truth?" Give the people here more credit than that.

  In my first & second post I attempt to demonstrate what it is that made many "apostates" conclude that the Organisation was not the truth, and why it is reasonable for all of us to blame the society (post 2) and not the local elders. None of these reasons could be blamed on the actions of local elders or a local witness saying something like "TV Is demonised". We all left for reasons beyond that, There is pleanty of damning evidence that the Society is "wicked, evil, and hoplessly corrupt" apostates" are wiser than JWs think.

  Hence the very scenerio you set was unbalanced and your summing up of many who post here was over generalised and full of sweeping statements. That was the very thing you were accusing "apostates" of.

  I didnt miss your point, I disagree with it.

  I am not saying that to make out you are a bad person, I think you have some excellent points but I think you are the one that needs to find a balance.

  Cheers

  Brummie
• 

  Brummie

  Bradley I'm going to apologise and step out of these threads all together. They are pushing the wrong buttons with me, time to take a break I guess.

  Brummie