Moral absolutes

by Aztec 163 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Very interesting Reborn. I'm glad you mentioned that about the class you took. That gives me a good persepective on where you're coming from. Thanks.

    Was it moral to allow the rape? Neither. It was a surivival choice with morality being irrelevent. The very controversial nature of the situation shows there is no accepted (by societal norms) morality in that situation. I say the rape was immoral or unethical. I submit it is not the parents' choice that is in question here, but the men who committed the act. Remember I'm wondering under what circumstances it is moral, ethical, virtuous, etc. to commit an unwanted, forced sexual act or for an adult to have a sexual relationship with a child. In your example, I submit that it is the two men who are commiting the act, not the parents. The parents are allowing it yes, but it is the two men who are the ones actively committing an act of unwanted, forced sex.

    Forgive me, as this might be splitting hairs, but I see a difference. And you might be right, my past might indeed be driving me on this, and yet I can't help but refer to the specific act itself. Is there an instance where the act is considered moral, virtuous or ethical? Or is that unfair?

  • Thunder Rider
    Thunder Rider

    This discussion really irks me. Of course there are moral absolutes. Rape in any context is reprehensible and evil. Rapist and anyone that tries to make excuses for a rapist is in my opinion a waste of skin. The abuse of a child in any way, be it sexual, physical or emotional is also absolutely, moraly, wrong.

    Murder, I consider moraly objectionable. While I feel it to be a wicked act, I can understand when circumstances might explain it away. I can think of transgressions that if perpetrated upon me or mine, would make murder a completely acceptable reaction. I would though then be guilty of crosing the moral and lawful lines set out by today's society and would yeild to any punishment deemed appropriate.

    Perhaps Aztec you might expand the parrameters of your question and ask, would moral absolutes be a benefit to humankind?

    As a side note, why is it that if a "professor" teaches it at a higher learning establishment, that it bears more credibility than simple common sense?

    Thunder

  • Reborn2002
    Reborn2002

    Some people's belief systems are so strong that they refuse to understand. Thanks for calling me a "waste of skin" Thunder Rider, I genuinely appreciate it. No one insulting you.

    I will illustrate another example so perhaps some of you can comprehend.

    A region is at war. Picture in your mind something similar to the violence and cruelty of Vietnam. Soldiers are conquering the town, and a platoon of men who serve the enemy side raid a home. Of course they are heavily armed having engaged in combat, so to attempt to fight them would be futile. They see a beautiful teenage girl in this family and unfortunately desire to use her for sexual purposes.It is obvious they want to have their way with her. They ask for the girl, and make it painstakingly clear that if they are denied they will kill the entire family. Is it morally wrong for the girl to give in to unwanted, forced sexual intercourse to save her family? An instance in which a rape saved the lives of people? Ethics itself teaches that people must act for the greater good of the majority, and no matter what, different people's opinions are going to vary on this subject.

    Expatbrit explained it best in his most recent post.

    Something else that occured is that it is very easy to confuse an action with a label for an action.

    Take rape for example. Rape is not actually an action. Rather it is a label for a specific occurence of an action that fits certain criteria. The action is sexual intercourse.

    In order to make a moral judgement on a specific occurence of sexual intercourse, we ask questions that will shed light on the context and circumstance of that specific occurence. Questions such as: what were the ages of the participants? Was the act mutually consensual? What are the personal circumstances of the participants as respect to relationships with others etc?

    Once we have this individual information, we then assign a moral label to the specific occurence of the act. These can be negative, such as "rape" or "adultery", or they can be positive, such as "making love" etc. There are a range of labels to suit the various circumstances of the specific act.

    In order to be a moral absolute, you would have to say that all occurences of the act (i.e. sexual intercourse) are either wrong, or right. This is obviously unworkable, and show why moral absolutes do not exist.

    It is also why saying that "rape is an absolute wrong" doesn't really have any meaning, because,"rape" is a morally relativistic label, applied using the process of moral relativism.

    as for your other unnecessary comment Thunder:

    As a side note, why is it that if a "professor" teaches it at a higher learning establishment, that it bears more credibility than simple common sense?

    Obviously you are again referring to me. The explanation given in ethics courses make absolute sense. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them wrong. I have presented scenarios and facts to support my position. What have you done? Relied on emotion and opinion? If I am not mistaken, you have a book which is advertised on this site from time to time. You experienced abuse in your past. Therefore, you are speaking from a biased perspective. This is not intended to insult you in any way. You just may wish to rethink insulting others as you are composing your post and hit "submit."

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32

    Thunder, please see what I wrote above:

    People need to realize that saying there are no moral absolutes is not the same thing as saying "all actions are good." Indeed, sometimes something disturbing must be allowed because it results in a greater good.

    Because it is possible that even the most gross acts would be the "lesser of two evils," it may be considered under those circumstances as being the "right thing to do." Because of that nothing can be considered always, unequivocally immoral.

    No one is saying that rape is sometimes not a bad thing; it's just that it may be justifiable under certain circumstances. (Circumstances which will most likely never present themselves in the lives of 99.999% of people, fortunately.)

    If a rapist was forced to violate some woman or face the mass execution of 1000 innocent children, would that excuse his actions? How can you say that there will never be an excuse or that someone trying to excuse it is a waste of skin? There is a very, very small possibility that a good excuse exists. It's this small possibility that derails the idea of "moral absolutes."

    Hope this makes more sense.

  • siegswife
    siegswife

    drwn,

    If a rapist was forced to violate some woman or face the mass execution of 1000 innocent children, would that excuse his actions?

    What would prevent the "rapist" from telling the woman about his dilemna during the assault? If the woman has morals, she would probably become a willing participant in the act in order to save the 1000 innocent children.

    Another take on this is that the man and the women are both victims of rape perpetrated by those who would kill the 1000 innocent children. Isn't the man being forced to have unwanted sex as well?

    Again, this scenario speaks to morals or lack thereof of those behind the heinous acts, not the victims.

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    As a side note, why is it that if a "professor" teaches it at a higher learning establishment, that it bears more credibility than simple common sense?

    Not all professors will agree on this either.

    I will illustrate another example so perhaps some of you can comprehend.

    Forgive me Reborn but I think in this case it may be you who does not understand the difference here.

    In your next scenario using the Soldiers and again another victim, it is not a question of morality for either the victim or the victims family but a question of morality for the soldiers. It was not ok or justified under any circumstances what they did. They were absolutely morally wrong under any and all possible circumstances in every way and should be shot.

    What the victim does is irrelevant.

    plum

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32
    Again, this scenario speaks to morals or lack thereof of those behind the heinous acts, not the victims.

    That is exactly the point. In this very unlikely scenario, the act of rape is not completely, absolutely, immoral. The real crime is the one who made such an ultimatum.

  • siegswife
    siegswife

    Aren't those people, in essence, raping the man as well? I contend that both the man and the woman are victims of a rapist and their morality is not what is in question. The person (people) behind the action is the rapist, not the man.

  • siegswife
    siegswife

    I wanted to edit my post (but couldn't) to add that even if the man decided to do nothing and the children got killed, that wouldn't make him responsible for their deaths. The people who do the actual killing are the murderers, not the man. He has no responsibility in the matter at all since he is the victim of the perversions of the same immoral people.

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy
    What the victim does is irrelevant!

    Some people just do not want to get the fact that there is a difference between a victim and a violator.

    PAY CLOSE ATTENTION

    The victim is the one with the gun held to his head

    not the one

    HOLDING THE GUN!

    If we are to say there are no moral absolutes then the ones with the guns violating people can be morally justified.

    ABSOLUTELY!

    They cannot!

    This is not a good day for me these threads on the forum are starting to piss me off

    I am going to go heat up my cauldron and call it a day.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit