Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

by ros 264 Replies latest jw friends

simwitness

Scholar,
Please explain:
Regarding Daniel 1:1 it can be interpreted to pertain to the latter part of his vassalage to Nebuchadnezzer hence the expression kingship rather than reign as put in the NWT
How "kingship" is any different than "reign" when the verse says "In the third year of".???
I really want to hear your explanation.
You also state:
In any event you have your chronology based on secular schema and mine which is based on a biblical schema. Never the twain shall meet.
When in reality they have met, at 539, you just refuse to accept the rest of the math. THe only "bilbical schema" you present is WTBS schema, and that has already been shown to simply be a "means to an end (date of 1914)".
Please explain, in simple terms, how (or why) the math doesn't work. So far, the only reason you give is the "70 years", and while I understand your issue, have you ever considered that possibly, just possibly, it is your interpetation of the 70 years that is wrong, and not the dates themselves?
Alleymom

What year did Nebuchadnezzar become King of Babylon?

Island Woman ---
His father Nabopolassar died on the 8th day of Abu in the 21st year of his reign = August 15, 605 BCE. At the time of his father's death, Nebuchadnezzar was in the west, waging his campaign to conquer "Hatti" country.
When word of Nabopolassar's death reached him, Nebuchadnezzar made a daring dash home by going straight across the desert, reaching Babylon in less than 21 days. Nebuchadnezzar ascended the throne on the 1st day of Ululu = September 7, 605 BCE.
We know this from the Babylonian Chronicle, specifically British Museum 21946, and it is confirmed by contemporary cuneiform documents. There are dated tablets up through the last month of Nabopolassar (the month of Abu); then the name of Nebuchadnezzar starts showing up on dated tablets beginning in the month of Elul.
Note that the actual date he ascended the throne is known: September 7, 605 BCE. But because different nations used different methods of counting (some counting from the year a king ascended to the throne, some counting the first full regnal year as the first year), the term "first year" can have two different meanings.
References:
The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume III, Part 2: The Assyrian and Babylonian Empires and Other States of the Near East, from the Eighth to the Sixth Centuries B.C., second edition; Cambridge University Press:1991, pp. 230-231.
Babylonian Chronology 626 BC - AD 75, Richard Parker and Waldo Dubberstein, Brown University Press: 1956, p. 12.
Handbook of Biblical Chronology, Jack Finegan, revised edition, 1998, p.76.
The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings, Edwin R. Thiele, revised edition, 1994, pp. 184-185.
Alleymom

Regarding Daniel 1:1 it can be interpreted to pertain to the latter part of his vassalage to Nebuchadnezzer hence the expression kingship rather than reign as put in the NWT.

µyqiy:/hyÒ tWkl]m'l ] v/lv; tn"v]Bi
rX'an<d]k'WbnÒ aB; hd;WhyÒAJl,m,
.h;yl,[; rx'Y:w" µl'iv;WryÒ lb,B;AJl,m

"In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim
king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar
king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it" Daniel 1:1, KJV
The word in red is Strong's #4438, and it means:

"royalty, royal power, reign, kingdom, sovereign power"

1a) royal power, dominion
1b) reign
1c) kingdom, realm

It does not mean "vassalage". It comes from the word "melek" which means "king". Remember
Melchi zedek, the King of Salem, whose name meant "KING" of righteousness?
This word occurs 91 times in the Old Testament. Take a look at how it is used, and see that there is never a shade of meaning which can mean "vassalage" or "servitude" ; on the contrary, the context is always one of dominion, reign, power.
When you scroll down through this long list, stop and pay particular attention to Jeremiah 52:31.
"And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, in the five and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the first year of his reign lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison, "
Note that the prophet Jeremiah uses a different Hebrew word to describe the year of Jehoiakin, who has been in captivity, for 37 years. If Daniel 1:1 were referring to the third year of vassalage, the Hebrew word used in the text would NOT be
tWkl]m
Here is the list of 91 occurrences of Strong's #4438, which is the word used in Daniel 1:1

Nu 24:7 (KJV)
He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his
kingdom shall be exalted.
1 Sa 20:31 (KJV)
For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy
kingdom . Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.
1 Ki 2:12 (KJV)
Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his
kingdom was established greatly.
1 Ch 11:10 (KJV)
These also are the chief of the mighty men whom David had, who strengthened themselves with him in his
kingdom , and with all Israel, to make him king, according to the word of the LORD concerning Israel.
1 Ch 12:23 (KJV)
And these are the numbers of the bands that were ready armed to the war, and came to David to Hebron, to turn the
kingdom of Saul to him, according to the word of the LORD.
1 Ch 14:2 (KJV)
And David perceived that the LORD had confirmed him king over Israel, for his
kingdom was lifted up on high, because of his people Israel.
1 Ch 17:11 (KJV)
And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his
kingdom .
1 Ch 17:14 (KJV)
But I will settle him in mine house and in my
kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
1 Ch 22:10 (KJV)
He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his
kingdom over Israel for ever.
1 Ch 26:31 (KJV)
Among the Hebronites was Jerijah the chief, even among the Hebronites, according to the generations of his fathers. In the fortieth year of the
reign of David they were sought for, and there were found among them mighty men of valour at Jazer of Gilead.
1 Ch 28:5 (KJV)
And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the
kingdom of the LORD over Israel.
1 Ch 28:7 (KJV)
Moreover I will establish his
kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
1 Ch 29:25 (KJV)
And the LORD magnified Solomon exceedingly in the sight of all Israel, and bestowed upon him such
royal majesty as had not been on any king before him in Israel.
1 Ch 29:30 (KJV)
With all his
reign and his might, and the times that went over him, and over Israel, and over all the kingdoms of the countries.
2 Ch 1:1 (KJV)
And Solomon the son of David was strengthened in his
kingdom, and the LORD his God was with him, and magnified him exceedingly.
2 Ch 2:1 (KJV)
And Solomon determined to build an house for the name of the LORD, and an house for his
kingdom.
2 Ch 2:12 (KJV)
Huram said moreover, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, that made heaven and earth, who hath given to David the king a wise son, endued with prudence and understanding, that might build an house for the LORD, and an house for his kingdom.
2 Ch 3:2 (KJV)
And he began to build in the second day of the second month, in the fourth year of his reign.
2 Ch 7:18 (KJV)
Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.
2 Ch 11:17 (KJV)
So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.
2 Ch 12:1 (KJV)
And it came to pass, when Rehoboam had established the kingdom, and had strengthened himself, he forsook the law of the LORD, and all Israel with him.
2 Ch 15:10 (KJV)
So they gathered themselves together at Jerusalem in the third month, in the fifteenth year of the reign of Asa.
2 Ch 15:19 (KJV)
And there was no more war unto the five and thirtieth year of the reign of Asa.
2 Ch 16:1 (KJV)
In the six and thirtieth year of the reign of Asa Baasha king of Israel came up against Judah, and built Ramah, to the intent that he might let none go out or come in to Asa king of Judah.
2 Ch 16:12 (KJV)
And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.
2 Ch 20:30 (KJV)
So the realm of Jehoshaphat was quiet: for his God gave him rest round about.
2 Ch 29:19 (KJV)
Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD.
2 Ch 33:13 (KJV)
And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD he was God.
2 Ch 35:19 (KJV)
In the eighteenth year of the reign of Josiah was this passover kept.
2 Ch 36:20 (KJV)
And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:
2 Ch 36:22 (KJV)
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
Ezr 1:1 (KJV)
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
Ezr 4:5 (KJV)
And hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.
Ezr 4:6 (KJV)
And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.
Ezr 7:1 (KJV)
Now after these things, in the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, Ezra the son of Seraiah, the son of Azariah, the son of Hilkiah,
Ezr 8:1 (KJV)
These are now the chief of their fathers, and this is the genealogy of them that went up with me from Babylon, in the reign of Artaxerxes the king.
Ne 9:35 (KJV)
For they have not served thee in their kingdom, and in thy great goodness that thou gavest them, and in the large and fat land which thou gavest before them, neither turned they from their wicked works.
Ne 12:22 (KJV)
The Levites in the days of Eliashib, Joiada, and Johanan, and Jaddua, were recorded chief of the fathers: also the priests, to the reign of Darius the Persian.
Es 1:2 (KJV)
That in those days, when the king Ahasuerus sat on the throne of his kingdom, which was in Shushan the palace,
Es 1:4 (KJV)
When he shewed the riches of his glorious kingdom and the honour of his excellent majesty many days, even an hundred and fourscore days.
Es 1:7 (KJV)
And they gave them drink in vessels of gold, (the vessels being diverse one from another,) and royal wine in abundance, according to the state of the king.
Es 1:9 (KJV)
Also Vashti the queen made a feast for the women in the royal house which belonged to king Ahasuerus.
Es 1:11 (KJV)
To bring Vashti the queen before the king with the crown royal, to shew the people and the princes her beauty: for she was fair to look on.
Es 1:14 (KJV)
And the next unto him was Carshena, Shethar, Admatha, Tarshish, Meres, Marsena, and Memucan, the seven princes of Persia and Media, which saw the king’s face, and which sat the first in the kingdom;
Es 1:19 (KJV)
If it please the king, let there go a royal commandment from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, that it be not altered, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she.
Es 1:20 (KJV)
And when the king’s decree which he shall make shall be published throughout all his empire, (for it is great,) all the wives shall give to their husbands honour, both to great and small.
Es 2:3 (KJV)
And let the king appoint officers in all the provinces of his kingdom, that they may gather together all the fair young virgins unto Shushan the palace, to the house of the women, unto the custody of Hege the king’s chamberlain, keeper of the women; and let their things for purification be given them:
Es 2:16 (KJV)
So Esther was taken unto king Ahasuerus into his house royal in the tenth month, which is the month Tebeth, in the seventh year of his reign.
Es 2:17 (KJV)
And the king loved Esther above all the women, and she obtained grace and favour in his sight more than all the virgins; so that he set the royal crown upon her head, and made her queen instead of Vashti.
Es 3:6 (KJV)
And he thought scorn to lay hands on Mordecai alone; for they had shewed him the people of Mordecai: wherefore Haman sought to destroy all the Jews that were throughout the whole kingdom of Ahasuerus, even the people of Mordecai.
Es 3:8 (KJV)
And Haman said unto king Ahasuerus, There is a certain people scattered abroad and dispersed among the people in all the provinces of thy kingdom; and their laws are diverse from all people; neither keep they the king’s laws: therefore it is not for the king’s profit to suffer them.
Es 4:14 (KJV)
For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father’s house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
Es 5:1 (KJV)
Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king’s house, over against the king’s house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house.
Es 5:3 (KJV)
Then said the king unto her, What wilt thou, queen Esther? and what is thy request? it shall be even given thee to the half of the kingdom.
Es 5:6 (KJV)
And the king said unto Esther at the banquet of wine, What is thy petition? and it shall be granted thee: and what is thy request? even to the half of the kingdom it shall be performed.
Es 6:8 (KJV)
Let the royal apparel be brought which the king useth to wear, and the horse that the king rideth upon, and the crown royal which is set upon his head:
Es 7:2 (KJV)
And the king said again unto Esther on the second day at the banquet of wine, What is thy petition, queen Esther? and it shall be granted thee: and what is thy request? and it shall be performed, even to the half of the kingdom.
Es 8:15 (KJV)
And Mordecai went out from the presence of the king in royal apparel of blue and white, and with a great crown of gold, and with a garment of fine linen and purple: and the city of Shushan rejoiced and was glad.
Es 9:30 (KJV)
And he sent the letters unto all the Jews, to the hundred twenty and seven provinces of the kingdom of Ahasuerus, with words of peace and truth,
Ps 45:6 (KJV)
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Ps 103:19 (KJV)
The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.
Ps 145:11 (KJV)
They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
Ps 145:12 (KJV)
To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
Ps 145:13 (KJV)
Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
Ec 4:14 (KJV)
For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.
Je 10:7 (KJV)
Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.
Je 49:34 (KJV)
The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah the prophet against Elam in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, saying,
Je 52:31 (KJV)
And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity [different Hebrew word] of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, in the five and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the first year of his reign lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison,
Da 1:1 (KJV)
In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.
Da 1:20 (KJV)
And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.
Da 2:1 (KJV)
And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.
Da 8:1 (KJV)
In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
Da 8:22 (KJV)
Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Da 8:23 (KJV)
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Da 9:1 (KJV) In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
Da 10:13 (KJV)
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Da 11:2 (KJV)
And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
Da 11:4 (KJV)
And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.
Da 11:9 (KJV)
So the king of the south shall come into his kingdom, and shall return into his own land.
Da 11:17 (KJV)
He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.
Da 11:20 (KJV)
Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.
Da 11:21 (KJV)
And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Scholar ---
How does the NWT translate Strong's #4438 in the other 90 occurrences in the Hebrew Bible?
Regards, Marjorie
Alleymom

In any event you have your chronology based on secular schema and mine which is based on a biblical schema. Never the twain shall meet.

Scholar --
This sounds like you are getting ready to brush me off with "Oh, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree." I sincerely hope that is not the case!
In any event, "my" chronology uses the Watchtower's OWN starting date of 539 as well as the Watchtower's OWN literature for the data on the names of the kings and the lengths of their reigns. See my first two messages on page 1 of the KISS thread. It is "your" chronology which has fatal internal inconsistencies. If you use your own starting point and your own information for the lengths of the reigns, you will NEVER arrive at 607. Fatal error.
What is more, you are trying to paint my chronology as "secular" (Boo! Hiss!) while yours is supposedly "Biblical" (Loud cheers!)
But the ONLY chronology in the Bible is a floating, relative chronology. Dates are expressed in terms of "year such and such" of "King so and so".
Surely you must acknowledge that YOUR chronology is based on a secular date, 539 BCE.
Your assertion that mine is "secular" and yours is "Biblical" presents a false dichotomy. Yours is secular, too. After all, you didn't find the date "539 BCE" written in any verse in the Bible. You got it from secular sources.
Regards,
Marjorie
Alleymom

You ask three questions concerning the validity of 539 and I answer in the affirmative as well explained in WT literature

Scholar ---
The three questions I asked were:
Scholar, do you believe that 539 is a fixed, absolute date, as the WT teaches?

Do you agree with the statement, "Recognized authorities of today accept 539 B.C.E. without any question"?

Do you agree that, "Other important events which occurred prior to 539 may now be quite accurately dated."?
And you now tell me that you answer "yes" to all three of those questions.
But on July 17, at 18:32, you said:
"there is very little in biblical chronology that is fully agreed upon by current scholarship"
In light of your affirmative answer to those three questions, you seem to be (reluctantly) acknowledging that there is scholarly consensus on the chronology of the fall of Jeruslam as well as on "other important events which occurred prior to 539". Is that correct?
Regards,
Marjorie
Alleymom

Island Woman --
So Daniel 1:1 tells us that Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Jerusalem the year before he became King of Babylon. As we continue reading in Daniel 1, we find that he took captives, including Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, and Daniel. This happened the year before Nebuchadnezzar became King of Babylon.
Rats! I knew I was going to get myself into trouble with accession year vs. non-accession year terminology <s> and typing this stuff up quickly.
In thinking about your question (which I answered earlier tonight) I see that I didn't say this clearly.
Let me re-phrase it by dropping the words "the year before" and substituting plain old "before":
Daniel 1:1 tells us that Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Jeusalem before he became king of Babylon. As we continue reading in Daniel 1, we find that he took captives, including Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, and Daniel. This happened before Nebuchadnezzar became king of Babylon.
That will avoid any confusion about interpreting "first year of Nebuchadnezzar". Regardless of whether you count the months of his accession year as his "first year" or whether you count his first FULL year as his "first year", the point is that the Bible says the capture of Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego took place before Nebuchadnezzar ascended the throne on 1 Elul, 605.
Another way I could phrase it would be to drop the words "the year before he became King of Babylon" and substitute "the year before his first year"
So Daniel 1:1 tells us that Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Jerusalem the year before his "first year" as King of Babylon. As we continue reading in Daniel 1, we find that he took captives, including Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, and Daniel. This happened the year before Nebuchadnezzar's "first year".
I was being careless. I apologize for any confusion.
(And I haven't forgotten that I still owe you several responses in the other thread! How in the world all of you manage to keep up with the fast-moving board is beyond me! )
Apologies!
Marjorie
Alleymom

The Society quotes from Thiele because he was an oustanding chronologist but this not mean that he was infallible and neither is his chronology.

Scholar --
This "outstanding chronologist" has a seamless chronology. Which part do you disagree with, and how can you accept some parts and not the others? Do you reject everything of this "outstanding" chronologist's chronology before the year 539?
Earlier you said that he "bends the rules" Which rules does he bend, in your opinion?
Thiele is known for his brilliant identication, analysis, and synthesis of the problems of chronology in the Bible lists of the kings of the divided kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Specifically, his work made it possible to resolve the apparent discrepancies in the Bible lists. His research showed that discrepancies of (+ or -) one year can be explained in several ways:
1) Some ancient peoples counted the years of a king's reign as beginning in the year he took the throne
2) Others did not count the "accession year" as year 1, but started the count with the king's first full year in office.
3) Some counted the years as running from Nisan to Nisan (with the new year commencing in the spring)
4) Others counted the years as running from Tishri to Tishri (with the new year starting in the fall)
5) When neighboring peoples refer to each other's kings, the fun really begins <s>. Do they use their own way of counting, or do they use the other group's own count?
6) Did the nations of Israel and Judah always count the same way through the entire history of the monarchies?
7) When the people of Judah were exiled to Babylonia, did they use the Babylonian method of counting kings' reigns, or their own Jewish method? Does this differ depending on whether the writer is in Babylon, as Daniel was, or back in Jerusalem, as Jeremiah was?
So when the Bible says something occurred in "year such-and-such of King so-and-so" you have to know which method is being used.
This is a quick explanation of Thiele's work. How does he "bend the rules" in any of that?
And what about your own explanation that Daniel 1:1 is referring to Jehoiakim's third year of vassalage rather than to his third year of reign, as the Bible text says?
In the third year of the reign
of Jehoiakim
king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar
king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it. Daniel 1:1
Most people would certainly think that if anyone is "bending the rules" it is the WT and not Thiele and the other Bible scholars. It seems to me that you are breaking your own rules of accepting the plain and simple meaning of the text unless there is a good reason to interpret it figuratively. There is no philological justification for interpreting Daniel 1:1 to mean "vassalage". There is only one reason: to protect the WT's key date of 1914.
Regards,
Marjorie
Alleymom

Scholar --
There is still another problem with your assertion that "third year of reign" really means "third year of vassalage."
Regarding Daniel 1:1 it can be interpreted to pertain to the latter part of his vassalage to Nebuchadnezzer hence the expression kingship rather than reign as put in the NWT
"In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it." Daniel 1:1
The problem is that the next chapter of Daniel refers to Nebuchadnezzar's second year, and this verse has absolutely nothing at all to do with Jehoiakim and any vassalage. It is speaking strictly of Nebuchadnezzar:
And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him. Daniel 2:1
How does the WT interpret this verse? Do they teach that "second" means "second"? Or if we allow the WT to have a deviation of (+ or -) one year in their chronology because of all that nuisance with the ways of counting accession years, do they at least teach that "second" might mean "first" or "third" ?
No. They teach that when the Bible says
the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar it really means his twentieth regnal year .
Do you think the average Witness is aware of this teaching? 2 = 20? What kind of "rules bending" and what kind of strange contortions do you have to go through to arrive at the idea that Daniel 2:1 is referring to Nebuchadnezzar's 20th year when the Bible text says it was his
2nd year?
You say that "my" chronology is secular and "yours" is Biblical. My chronology says that Daniel 1:1 and Daniel 2:1 are to be taken at face value.
Remember how Clinton parsed his sentences? When does "is" mean "is"?
I look at your organization's tortured re-interpretations of Daniel 1:1 and 2:1, and I wonder:
--- How can 2nd mean 20th, in Daniel 2:1?

--- How can Neuchadnezzar's accession year (Daniel 1:1 together with Jeremiah 25:1) be interpreted to mean Nebuchadnezzar's 7th year?

--- If Daniel 1:1 is Nebuchadnezzar's 7th year, as the WT teaches, then how can the boys have had their 3-year training session end in Nebuchadnezzar's 20th year? Even allowing for "inclusive reckoning" where three years can mean parts of three years, there is no way that you can leap from year 7 to year 20.
What kind of math is that? Your own system has another internal error. This has nothing to do with secular vs. Biblical. Things just don't add up.
Regards,
Marjorie
AlanF

Hey Marjorie,
I'm continuing to enjoy your incisive dissection of "scholar's" hypocrisy. But I'm afraid it's water off a duck's back.
AlanF
ros

Nevertheless, let Scholar keep motivating Marjorie to give us more excellent commentary. I'm cutting and pasting a lot of the info to keep. Thanks very much, Alleymom. Very much appreciated.
~Ros

Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

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