Can God exist outside of time (page 3)

AlanF

Myx said,

: I hope this sheds some new light on the 100% accuracy of a prophecy from God.

Actually it sheds light on why I never liked C.S. Lewis: he's a terrible thinker. If God can 'simultaneously' 'see' everything that has ever happened in history or ever will, then history is static, therefore cannot change, therefore everything is fixed "aforetime", therefore there is no free will.

I also understand that Christians in general hate these ideas, but that simply illustrates that many Christian notions -- whether they come from the Bible or not -- are quite illogical and even unreasonable.

AlanF

Myxomatosis

Hello Alan

Alan: Actually it sheds light on why I never liked C.S. Lewis: he's a terrible thinker.>>>>

Ok you're opinion. Have you read many of his books then? (And, btw, that is a post that was directed to a practicing JW, hence why I said that)

<<<<If God can 'simultaneously' 'see' everything that has ever happened in history or ever will, then history is static, therefore cannot change, therefore everything is fixed "aforetime", therefore there is no free will.>>>

errrrrr.....how so for us ickle homo sapiens down here on planet earth? I disagree, you would have to be a bit more thorough in the explanation if you don't mind. I do not believe FREE WILL is not an issue in this, because G-D can see it doesn't mean that He INTERFERES with our Free will. there is no absolute time for those A PART of the UNIVERSE, influenced and subject to this dimension.

<<<<I also understand that Christians in general hate these ideas, but that simply illustrates that many Christian notions -- whether they come from the Bible or not -- are quite illogical and even unreasonable.>>>> *ok Spok*

rrrrrright. ugh. Really, Christians in GENERAL probably don't really THINK about these ideas. There's over a billion, maybe you and I shouldn't speculate on which *ideas* in general Christians do or do not hate?

'Illustrates that many Christian notions',,,, SUCH AS?

Myxomatosis

Euphemism

Alan.. it's meaningless to say that the universe is static. Static means unchanging; change involves time; and time is part of the universe. So with all due respect, I would argue that your reasoning is circular.

Free will is based on causality, and causality is based on time. So by definition, the knowledge of a hypothesized observer outside time cannot affect free will.

I'm happy to let this debate drop if you wish; you've obviously done your homework on the subject and made up your mind. But it might be better to keep the matter to the subject at hand, rather than expanding into general statements about Christian belief.

Euphemism

Sorry, Alan, I realized that I forgot to address your previous post. You wrote:

If God exists outside this worm, then he can, in his own sort of "spacetime", observe any part of the worm at any "time" he chooses.

But what I'm arguing is that God is not in some "sort of spacetime." I'm arguing that He (or It, if you prefer) is beyond such a notion. Time only applies to matter, after all. God is not matter. He (It) created matter.

along with a whole bunch of other stuff that predestinationists believe

I just wanted to clarify that theologically, I don't believe in predestination. Assuming that God is outside time, then what God knows or does not know is essentially irrelevant to human beings, so predestination is a meaningless concept. I do, however, believe in the possibility of prophecy. From a metaphysical perspective, there's probably not much difference; but I figured I'd clarify the point just in case.

setfreefinally

Well, its obvious that you folks are way ahead of me on this. But from the comments from everyone I have hopefully learned something.

Euphemism, I don't mind the matter of christian beliefs being entered into the discussion because I think they are inextricably tied to belief in God and time and free will or predestination.

It seems improbable that God could see all things past, present and future as if they had already happened to him. Things being static or unchangeable would make it more probable but still highly improbable.

It seems even more improbable to the point of almost being practically nonexistent that we have free will and that God can see with absolute certainty exactly what choices we make and exactly what circumstances we make them under and every scenario that might play out since the beginning of universe.

This is why:

The orderliness but also the disorderliness of the universe and creation points to, to me anyway, that things can and do go wrong and it is not possible even for God to see and control everything. If there is a God???? I dont know.

Any more comments from you good folks.

Euphemism

Setfree... I'll reply the same thing here that I was going to say in reply to your PM... I don't believe that orderliness enters into it.

If it were a matter of God making predictions, then the universe would have to be orderly (or, more accurately, deterministic) to make such predictions possible.

The point of God being outside time, however, is that He's not predicting... He's not considering all the possibilities of the future... He's seeing what actually hapens at all points in time.

If these seems improbable to you, well, that's your prerogative, of course. I should add, however, that God's ability to see the future has nothing to do with His ability to control it. Let's say that you're watching fish in an aquarium... does that mean that you can automatically also control what they do? Of course not!

setfreefinally

Setfree... I'll reply the same thing here that I was going to say in reply to your PM... I don't believe that orderliness enters into it.

If it were a matter of God making predictions, then the universe would have to be orderly (or, more accurately, deterministic) to make such predictions possible. I guess I was thinking along the lines of God being a God of complete order and we do not see this in all of his creation.

The point of God being outside time, however, is that He's not predicting... He's not considering all the possibilities of the future... He's seeing what actually hapens at all points in time. How can God see what I will do next year if somewhere between now and then I exercise my free will to lets say, jump off a building. I wouldn't even be here next year. In other words what actually hapens at all points in time. would actually be constantly changing. Am I not getting something here?

If these seems improbable to you, well, that's your prerogative, of course. I should add, however, that God's ability to see the future has nothing to do with His ability to control it. Let's say that you're watching fish in an aquarium... does that mean that you can automatically also control what they do? Of course not! Are you saying God does not have the ability to control the future? Some things that come to mind are earthquakes, volcanoes that seem to be evidence of bad design in the first place. If the earth was formed to be inhabited by God for humans why make it inhospitable to life in some ways. BTW earthquakes and volcanoes were here before man IMO so mans sin probably did not cause it.

setfreefinally

OICU8it2

Jesus said it was predetermined he would be betrayed. Then he said something like woe to the man thru whom this gets fulfilled. Perhaps God will see the future in a more general way but the individuals still have a choice. Kinda like the Heisenburg thing. You can know a statistical outcome but not which individual particles will be included. The closer you look at one thing the more blurred its counterpart becomes. I personally don't believe in a "timescape" outlook. Thanks for the post.

setfreefinally

I personally don't believe in a "timescape" outlook. Thanks for the post.

What is a "timescape" outlook?

Can God exist outside of time

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