Thank everyone for their replies. I should have stated my question a little clearer no doubt. Alan pretty much summed up what I was thinking about i.e..... God most likely would have to exist outside of time if he could predict the future with 100 percent accuracy. If this is so then one would have to believe in predestination. I am trying to get my head around the idea if we believe in the Bible that we supposedly have free will but...IF God can predict the future down to the minutest detail how can it possibly be said that there is free will? It would have to be, so to speak, be written in advance or determined in advance such as Alan said at the moment of creation. If this is so then we are not really making choices but simply following a predetermined set of plans that when set in motion simply run their course. How is that free will??
Can God exist outside of time
by setfreefinally 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Euphemism
Having been a lurker here for a while, I have a great deal of regard for AlanF, and I would rather be on his side in any discussion! But with all due respect, I would disagree with his position.
The key point is that a God who is "outside time" does not make predictions. One could say that this God knows what we will do before we do it; we could also say that this God knew what everyone in the Universe would do, before it was ever created.But both of those statements are missing the point... because they're still applying temporal terms to God.
In other words, the spacetime continuum, as AlanF aptly pointed out, appears static to God. But this is not because it is static, but rather because God can see all points of time at once. Not only "can," but "must" and "does". Because if God were to make a choice to see some things at one time, and not at another, that would imply that he was inside time!
I hope that this makes sense. It's a concept, like hyper-dimensionality, that can only be described logically, but cannot be grasped intuitively, because humans have no experience of being outside time.
I also don't claim that this concept is provable, by any means. I simply claim that it's not falsifiable. Whether one actually believes in free will and in prophecy are entirely separate questions. :)
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setfreefinally
Euphemism wrote:
But this is not because it is static, but rather because God can see all points of time at once. Not only "can," but "must" and "does". Because if God were to make a choice to see some things at one time, and not at another, that would imply that he was inside time!
Thank you for your comments. Whether one can see all points of time at once or it is static means relatively the same thing doesnt it. It would seem that all events throughout time are still unchangeable if God can see all points of time past or future, unless I misunderstood you.
Unrelated point.
God creating the universe would be kind of like playing chess with an opponent and knowing his every move in every game you played before he ever made his first move. What fun would that be and what point would it prove?
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Euphemism
Thanks for your reply, setfree.
It would seem that all events throughout time are still unchangeable if God can see all points of time past or future, unless I misunderstood you.
My point is... God cannot see the past or the future... because there is no past and future to God. That's what being outside time means. All of time is the present to God, because God only has a present.
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D wiltshire
Re: Can God exist outside of time?
That is a question, that "natural science" can't answer because, it is out of its domain.
Theologically, it is theoretical at best for God's Word has not addressed this issue, at least I don't think so, Why?
Because ancients did not have the same concepts that we have of time,"as a sort of 4 dimension". So any debate, I think, would be speculative, and open to Bible interpetation. Bible interpretation should be done with caution and with as complete as possible knowlege of ancient concepts at the time it was written, because God speaks to people in concepts that they understand. Forgetting to remember this has caused much misapplication of the "Word"
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AlanF
Hi Euphemism,
: The key point is that a God who is "outside time" does not make predictions. One could say that this God knows what we will do before we do it; we could also say that this God knew what everyone in the Universe would do, before it was ever created. But both of those statements are missing the point... because they're still applying temporal terms to God.
Well, not really. First, note that when I spoke of, shall we say, God's "doing" things in his "outside-of-time 'time'", I tried to put the words expressing notions of "God's time" in quotation marks to indicate that this "time" is not our sort of time. I have to do this because there are no words to express the concepts in any better way that I can think of. Second, if we buy into the concept of a static structure of "spacetime" that allows God to "observe" all its parts "at once" -- including "seeing" every "slice" of it that represents a particular "present" -- and we acknowledge that in some mysterious way there is a special slice of this spacetime that we call "the present", then the pronouncements of God that we call "predictions of the future" must be observed by us in that special slice (for where else could we observe them?), and therefore must be part of that spacetime itself. In other words, God's predictions are not true predictions at all, but are merely other parts of the structure of spacetime that God put in place at the "instant" of its creation. Thus there need be no application at all to God's predictions as "temporal terms". So in this special sense, I agree with you that God "does not make predictions".
I should point out that I'm only pointing out the logical consequences of the belief that "God exists outside time" along with a whole bunch of other stuff that predestinationists believe. Personally I don't believe that there can be a static "structure of spacetime", partly because it violates what we know about quantum mechanical uncertainty, and partly for the related but purely emotional reason that it violates my perception that I do indeed make choices -- sometimes completely (apparently) random choices. I should also point out that I am pointing out nothing new here. I read about concepts like this in the 1960s when I was heavy into 1950s and earlier science fiction.
: In other words, the spacetime continuum, as AlanF aptly pointed out, appears static to God. But this is not because it is static, but rather because God can see all points of time at once.
The notion that God can see all points of time at once is essentially the picture I've painted above. Note that you, like me, are forced to use our own words for "time" and so forth to express our concepts.
As for the notion that our spacetime is not static, that results in a contradiction. If the slice of spacetime that we call "the present" (I picture this as a plane sliding along a big pink worm that is the whole of spacetime, if that makes any sense) represents a "freezing point" for events (if not, then the past can be changed; think about the logical consequences of that!), then all "predictions of the future" that have already been incorporated into the "frozen" and static structure of events "behind" our moving "time slice of the present" must point to future events in an equally static structure. Why? Because if "the time slice of the present" can influence future events, then it is impossible for past predictions that have been statically incorporated into the structure of spacetime to predict a possibly changing future. But if the future is indeed unchanging, then the entire struture is static. Thus the contradiction.
: Not only "can," but "must" and "does". Because if God were to make a choice to see some things at one time, and not at another, that would imply that he was inside time!
Not at all. Use the mental picture of a multi-dimensional pink worm to represent this gigantic spacetime that incorporates all past, present and future events into its structure. If God exists outside this worm, then he can, in his own sort of "spacetime", observe any part of the worm at any "time" he chooses. In particular, being all-powerful, he can observe all of it "simultaneously". Please note my use of quotation marks to set off the sort of "time" I'm talking about.
: I hope that this makes sense. It's a concept, like hyper-dimensionality, that can only be described logically, but cannot be grasped intuitively, because humans have no experience of being outside time.
That's right, which is why I consider discussions such as this interesting, but essentially useless. The only reason I get involved in such discussions is to attempt to show predestinationists that their ideas are nonsensical. Of course, trying to do that is usually like trying to convince a JW that the Governing Body is a modern day Keystone Kops.
AlanF
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Chap
If God is omnipresent as is alluded to in the Bible, he exists at every place at every time. If this is true, God does not have to exist outside of time. If a time is viewed like a place and vice-versa, and there is infinity, there is no such thing is outside of time. Time is then part of infinity just like place is. If God is infinite, can he exist outside of himself?
I think this view allows for both predestination and free will. Since God is everywhere, he is in the future as well as the past. If this is correct, God does not see things in the future as we do. Everything in our time-space would be either in the present or in the past in God's view.
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Mr. Kim
Answer: YES!...among other things......
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setfreefinally
Interesting comments by all!
Chap: If God is omnipresent as is alluded to in the Bible, he exists at every place at every time. If this is true, God does not have to exist outside of time. If a time is viewed like a place and vice-versa, and there is infinity, there is no such thing is outside of time. Time is then part of infinity just like place is. If God is infinite, can he exist outside of himself?
:I think this view allows for both predestination and free will. Since God is everywhere, he is in the future as well as the past. If this is correct, God does not see things in the future as we do. Everything in our time-space would be either in the present or in the past in God's view. How do the angels fit into this picture? The bible would seem to indicate that they view time and their existence and our existence in a similar manner as most of us do. The scripture comes to mind among others that when a sinner repents that the angels rejoice and God for that matter also. They would apparently be viewing/living the same slice of time as we are. To put God somehow outside of this dimension whether he be inside or outside of "time" seems unlikely to me. It seems just as logical to believe in invisible pink unicorns, which I don't.
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Myxomatosis
Hello all,
This is a great topic! I had the opportunity to already address this with (surprise) a JW I was talking with, who found it laughable when I said that 'there is no 'time' in Heaven' and that G-d is not influenced by it. You all seem to have a very good idea about it, here is our little discussion that may be helpful, and a bit by C.S. Lewis that rather explains it well. The idea that space/time is FINITE and had a beginning was first identified by Theologians, only recently have scientists been exploring this idea. (not to do w/ G-d, but just the fact that space/time does not exist outside the universe. It's quite interesting what the JW says about time, as you will see, in the respect that he's thirty years my senior.
BTW, the fact that G-d is Omniscient does not interfere with free will. Obviously.
I apologize for the length, I wanted to be thorough.
Chap said: <<<If God is omnipresent as is alluded to in the Bible, he exists at every place at every time. If this is true, God does not have to exist outside of time. If a time is viewed like a place and vice-versa, and there is infinity, there is no such thing is outside of time. Time is then part of infinity just like place is. If God is infinite, can he exist outside of himself?>>>>
Time is neither infinite, nor space.
Hi JW
Myx: there is no time in Heaven
JW: LOL! Myx: You weren't aware of this?
JW: Time is alot of things. But mostly it is a unit of measurement.>>>
Myx:mmm, how do you figure? There is no absolute time. (theory of relativity)
Myx: Listen to this,,,
St. Augustine (A.D. 354-430) said way back when
"When asked 'What did God do before he created the Universe?
He said that 'Time WAS A PROPERTY OF THE UNIVERSE THAT G-D CREATED, AND THAT TIME DID NOT EXIST BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE UNIVERSE'
Myx: Now, hold on, (before you reply saying 'that's his opinion) this man was a Christian, and He made this fantastic statement,,,only to be proven absolutely entirely correct with Science, by the likes of Stephen Hawking, as I will briefly demonstrate.
Myx: I'm sorry, but time is mass times exceleration,, there is no 'time'(as we know it) in Heaven, lol,,, do you think it is Thursday May 29th for God too?
This is a simple matter of Science.
G-d created the Universe, YES?
Here's a little explanation of why I say that 'time' is created, from
'A brief History of Time' by Stephen Hawking
"Before 1915, space and time were though of as a fixed arena in which events took place, but which was not affected by what happened in it. This was true even of the special theory of relativity. Bodies moved, forces attracted and repelled, but time and space simply continued, unaffected. It was natural to think that space and time went on forever.
The situation, however, is quite different in the general theory of relativity (Myx: y'know? Einstein? E=mc [squared]) Space and time are now dynamic quantities: when a body moves, or a force acts, it affects the curvature of space and time--and in turn the structur of space-time affects the way in which bodies move and forces act. Space and time not only affect but also are affected by everything that happens in the universe. Just as one cannot talk about events in the universe without the notions of space and time, so in general relativity it became meaningless to talk about space and TIME OUTSIDE THE LIMITS OF THE UNIVERSE.
In the following decades this new understanding of space and time was to revolutionize our view of the universe. The old idea of an essentially unchanging universe that could have existed, and could continue to exist, forever was replaced by the notion of a dynamic, expanding universe that seemed to have begun a finite time ago, and that might end at a finite time in the future. That revolution formst he subject of the next chapter. And years later, it was also to be the starting point for my work in theoretical physics. Roger Penrose and I showed that Einstein's general theory of relativity implied the Universe (SPACE AND TIME) MUST HAVE A BEGINNING, and possibly an end."
JW: Time is the rate at which things change,[ ie. grow old, decay, break down ].
Myx: no that is not time. That is what happens IN TIME, but it is not TIME
JW: Time is also the distance between events, Measured in years, months, hours
Myx:.Hmmmm,,,that would mean that time is absolute, which it isn't that opinion goes against the theory of relativity. I know that isn't a very thorough explanation, just ask if you want me to explain what I mean. (by the way, all you said about time proves nothing in the way of it being 'eternal' or 'infinite', it's just some of your thoughts about it, which is fine, but you really shouldn't write off what a person is saying based on your basic understanding)
JW:Time like God himself, has no beginning and no end. It stretches infinitely into the past and infinitely into the future.>
Myx: and your proof is? wrong! completely separate, that would be an oxymoron. Are you a pantheist? G-d is not part of His creation. He is not a 'part' of the Universe(yes, I know he is EVERYWHERE, but not limited as this would be doing). Time is finite, created, not absolute, G-d is Infinite, Eternal, Absolute. Hmmm, not much of a resemblance that I can see.(G-d: being outside the World in Hebrew)
JW: There was a time when the Son became "the only begotten Son".<wrong> Wrong wrong wrong wrong, this is one of the remarkable things about the Hebrew concept of 'eternity' because before modern times, people had no idea about the 'time' and 'space' being dynamic quantities. But, when 'eternity' is used, it is so incredibly expressive of something that is 'timeless' 'is and was and forever' also, that when Jesus says he was with the Father before the Universe began, and He created it, and scriptures say that He is begotten, there is NO WAY that a person can say that there was a 'time' when he was 'begotten' because G-d is not in 'time' He created the Universe, as you saw, time DID NOT EXIST before the Universe.
Maybe from a Christian the idea of 'time' being separate from G-d will help
From 'Mere Christianity' C.S. Lewis
TIME AND BEYOND TIME
"In the last chapter I had to touch on the subject of prayer, and while that is still fresh in your mind and my own, I should like to deal with a difficulty that some people find about the whole idea of prayer. A man put it to me by saying 'I can believe in God all right, but what I cannot swallow is the idea of Him attending to several hundred million human beings who are all addressing Him at the same moment.' And I have found that quite a lot of people feel this.
Now, the first thing to notice is the whole sting of it comes in the words 'at the same moment.' Most of us can imagine God attending to any number of applicants if only they came one by one and He had an endless time to do it in. So what is really at the back of this difficulty is the idea of God having to fit too many things into one moment of time.
Well that is of course what happens to us. Our life comes to us moment by moment. One moment disappears before the next comes along: and there is room for very little in each. That is what Time is like. And of course you and I tend to take it for granted that this Time sereis--this arrangement of past, present and future--is not simply the way life comes to us but the way all things really exist. We tend to assume that the whole universe and God Himself are always moving on from past to future just as we do. But many learned men do not agree with that. It was the Theologians who first started the idea that some things are not in Time at all: later the Philosophers took it over: and now some of the scientist are doing the same.
Almost certainly God is not in Time. His life does not consist of moments following one another. If a million people are praying to Him at ten-thirty tonight, He need not listen to them all in that one little snippet which we call ten-thirty. Ten thirty--and every other moment from the beginning of the world--is always the Present for Him. If you like to put it that way, He has all eternity in which to listen to the split second of prayer put up by a pilot as his plane crashes in flames.
That is difficult, I know. Let me try to give something, not the same, but a bit like it. Suppose I am writing a novel. I write 'Mary laid down her work; next moment came a knock at the door!' For Mary who has to live in the imaginary time of my story there is no interval between putting down the work and hearing the knock. But I, who am Mary's maker, do not live in that imaginary time at all. Between writing the first half of that sentence and the second, I might sit down for three hours and think steadily about Mary. I could think about Mary as if she were the only character in the book and for as long as I pleased, and the hours I spent in doing so would not appear in Mary's time (the time inside the story) at all.
This is not a perfect illustration, of course. But it may give just a glimpse of what I believe to be the truth. God is not hurried along in the Time-stream of this universe any more than an author is hurried along in the imaginary time of his own novel. He has infinite attention to spare for each one of us. He does not have to deal with us in the mass. You are as much alone with Him as if you were the only being He had ever created. When Christ died, He died for you individually just as much as if you had been the only man in the world.
The way in which my illustration breaks down is this. In it the author gets out of one Time-series (that of the novel) only by going into another Time-series(the real one.) But God, I believe, does not live in a time series at all. (**Myx: check it out! brilliant! C.S. had it all thought out years before Stephen Hawkings wrote 'A Brief History of Time' (1940-50) that's why he here says 'I believe' because it really only made sense) His life is not dribbled out moment by moment like ours: with Him it is, so to speak, still 1920 and already 1960. For His life is Himself.
If you picture Time as a straight line along which we have to travel, then you must picture God as the whole page on which the line is drawn. We come to the parts of the line one by one: we have to leave A behind before we get to B, and cannot reach C until we leave B behind. God, from above or outside or all around, contains the whole line, and sees it all.
The idea is worth trying to grasp because it removes some apparent difficulties in Christianity. Before I became a Christian (**Myx: He was an atheist til 30 or so I believe,, converted partly by the effort of none other than J.R.R. Tolkein) one of my objections was as follows. The Christians said that the eternal God who is everywhere and keeps the whole universe going, once became a human being. Well, then, said I, how did the whole universe keep going while He was a baby, or while He was asleep? How could He at the same time be God who knows everything and also a man asking his disciples 'Who touched me?' You will notice that the sting lay in the 'time' words: 'WHILE He was a baby' ---How could He AT THE SAME TIME?' In other words I was assuming that Christ's life as God was in time, and that His life as the man Jesus in Palestine was a shorter period taken from that time--just as my service in the army was a shorter period taken out of my total life. And that is how most of us perhaps tend to think about it. We picture God living through a perios when His human life was still in the future: then coming to a perios when it was present: then going on to a perios when He could look back on it as something in the past. But probably these ideas correspond to nothing in the actual facts. You cannot fit Christ's earthly life in Palestine into any tim-relations whith His life as God beyond all space and time. It is really, I suggest, a timeless truth about God that human nature, and the human experience of weakness and sleep and ignorance, are somehow included in His whole divine life. This human life in God is from our point of view a particular period in the history of our world (from the year A.D. one till the Crucifixion). We therefore imagine it is also a perios in the history of God's own existence. But God has no history. He is too completely and utterly real to have one. For, of course, to have a history means losing part of your reality (because it has already slipped away into the past) and not yet having another part (because it is tstill in the future): in fact having nothing but the tiny little present, which has gone before you can speak about it. God forbid we should think God was like that. Even we may hope not to be always rationed in that way.
Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this. Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to do so-and-so, how can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot. Well, if that were true, if God FORESAW our acts, it would not be very hard to understand how we could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call 'tomorrow' is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call 'today'. All the days are 'Now' for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday; He simply sees you doing them, because, though you have lost yesterday, He has not. He does not 'foresee' you doing things tomorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that you actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions in just the same way--- because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action till you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is already 'Now' for Him."
**Myx:: whhhooooo Yep I typed all that up. Were there any spelling mistakes? I never check.
2 Peter 1:19
"Above all, you must understand that no prephecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke form God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
I hope this sheds some new light on the 100% accuracy of a prophecy from God.
Myxamatosis
booyakasha