Men and women are equal

by Freedom rocks 35 Replies latest members private

  • Wake Me Up Before You Jo-Ho
    Wake Me Up Before You Jo-Ho

    @LoveUniHateExams: "I think there have been studies on IQ tests and ethnicity done in America. From what I remember, the highest mean IQ score was by Asian-Americans (Chinese and Japanese heritage), then came white Americans, then Latinos, then black Americans. This difference is only slight - I'm not claiming that the Chinese are the master race or that African-Americans are dumb, for instance."

    It's true that there are palpable differences in education spanning across the various races, however I would argue that this has very little to do with race than it has to do with culture. I'm not surprised that the African American demographic ranked lowest in IQ. The single mother rate in the black community has jumped from 20 per cent to 70 per cent in the same course of time that the Civil Rights movement has made such tremendous strides. In a blatant attempt of linking cause and effect, I'm going to mention that a vast number of black kids aren't graduating high school. This may be an apt demonstration of racial prejudice not being the issue, but rather, cultural constructs.

    @LoveUniHateExams: "Men tend to be more attracted to high risk-high reward activities whereas women tend to be much more sensible." True words. Women live longer, and that's not just a trivial thing. Historically speaking, from coal mining to fighting in the trenches, men are likely to be killed early by their own testosterone. They do almost all the dangerous jobs, including nearly all the outside work. There are plenty of reasons why men get paid more than women that have nothing to do with gender prejudice. More often, men tend to take awfully strenuous jobs. Imagine working in the oil rigs where it's below forty degrees and come out of that after a few years with two or three fingers missing. As a sweeping generalization between men and women, who do you think are more likely to wrestle with pipes when it's forty below and absolutely filthy?

    @Xanthippe: "Even Neanderthals apparently survived for a very long time because they cooperated with one another and had compassion for their badly wounded as is evidenced by survival after severe injury." Interesting. Therein lies my theory for why females inherently preserve their lives for longer than their male counterparts; the conservative roles assumed by the females lent itself to a prolonged lifespan, which in turn complemented the higher procreation of their own offspring. Nice girls may finish last in the workforce, but in the long run, it's a highly effective strategy in the biological world.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    however I would argue that this has very little to do with race than it has to do with culture. I'm not surprised that the African American demographic ranked lowest in IQ. The single mother rate in the black community has jumped from 20 per cent to 70 per cent in the same course of time that the Civil Rights movement has made such tremendous strides. In a blatant attempt of linking cause and effect, I'm going to mention that a vast number of black kids aren't graduating high school. - while I believe black children not having daddy around has a negative impact upon them, I'm not sure it would effect IQ test results. For instance, why do Asians have a higher mean IQ than whites?

    Women live longer, and that's not just a trivial thing. Historically speaking, from coal mining to fighting in the trenches, men are likely to be killed early by their own testosterone - this is true, men are more likely to die young because of their bravery or stupidity. But even the sensible men don't live as long as women. In other words, the mean female lifespan is longer than the mean male lifespan.

  • Wake Me Up Before You Jo-Ho
    Wake Me Up Before You Jo-Ho

    @LoveUniHateExams: "...while I believe black children not having daddy around has a negative impact upon them, I'm not sure it would effect IQ test results."

    Subjectively speaking, as a single mother myself, it feels like an uphill mission to provide what should be the basic necessities for my child (medically and educationally, etc). The missing emotional and financial support of a second parent takes the option of added bells and whistles off the table for my son. In this sense, I can envision the fatherless kids in the black community having very little emphasis on schooling than they do on everyday survival.

    @LoveUniHateExams: "Why do Asians have a higher IQ mean than whites?"

    That's a good question. I'd still rest on my original culture trumping race hypothesis. Consider the influence of first-generation Asian American parents on their US-born children’s educational and vocational decisions. Quite often you'll find that these reflect their harsh experiences as immigrants in the United States. In a similar vein, contrast their Confucian values with those in Western culture. Such values include filial piety, or, the act of respecting one’s elders; and interdependence, otherwise known as family centrality. This drive to appease and support the family financially may be the motivating force propelling Asian youths to undergo formidable amounts of studying.

  • jp1692
  • TD
    TD
    TD Good example, albeit anecdotal.

    Definitely anecdotal, but more than just a personal anecdote. The nastiness of men like Roland Collier and Theodore Jaracz was very well known in JW circles, but (because of the gender hierarchy of the JW faith) most of it happened behind closed doors with only men present.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    Ugh, that old myth again! - I'm not sure racial differences in IQ scores is a myth.

    For instance, The Asian Effect - Why Do Asian Americans Outperform All Other Minority Groups states

    "While Asians do not on average have higher IQs than their non-Asian peers, they somehow manage to stand out in the classroom."

    No citation given for the IQ claim.

    Here's a comment from someone who takes a different view:

    "My major discoveries are that the Oriental peoples of East Asia have higher average intelligence by about 5 IQs points than Europeans and peoples of European origin in the United States and elsewhere" - Prof Richard Lynn.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0KKc6GbeNo

    ^^^ Here's an interesting discussion on race and IQ ^^^

  • Simon
    Simon

    IQ is less about culture or education and more about genetics which is why the fact that some groups score differently is so "controversial". Not because there is much doubt in the science or the results but people don't want to admit that ethnicities are different when it comes to intelligence even though physical differences are readily accepted.

    It's like people want to believe the brain is somehow not physical too.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    Not because there is much doubt in the science or the results but people don't want to admit that ethnicities are different when it comes to intelligence even though physical differences are readily accepted - the more I dig into the matter, the more it seems that the data and results are in and that there is a conclusion or a census that's taboo.

    Mainstream scientists don't want to talk about it, as if talking about it will lead to ordinary people believing lower avg intelligence = lower value as human beings. It's crazy when you think about it. Black sprinters wipe the floor with white sprinters and Asian sprinters ... it obviously doesn't mean black people are the master race.

    Here's a scientific paper on race and IQ: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Thomas_Bouchard_Jr/publication/232430439_Intelligence_Knowns_and_Unknowns/links/02e7e5266edcb3cfa8000000/Intelligence-Knowns-and-Unknowns.pdf

  • jp1692
    jp1692

    LUHE: I was intrigued by the paper by Neisser et which you linked. It's from 1996 so I'd be curious to see what more recent research shows. But I did find this from the paper which clearly contradicts the point you're seeming to want to make:

    Mean Scores of Different Ethnic Groups - Asian Americans: In the years since the Second World War, Asian Americans--especially those of Chinese and Japanese extraction--have compiled an outstanding record of academic and professional achievement. This record is reflected in school grades, in scores on content-oriented achievement tests like the SAT and GRE, and especially in the disproportionate representation of Asian Americans in many sciences and professions. Although it is often supposed that these achievements reflect correspondingly high intelligence test scores, this is not the case. In more than a dozen studies from the 1960s and 1970s analyzed by Flynn (1991), the mean IQs of Japanese and Chinese American children were always around 97 or 98; none was over 100. Even Lynn (1993), who argues for a slightly higher figure, concedes that the achievements of these Asian Americans far outstrip what might have been expected on the basis of their test scores (Neisser et al, 1996, p. 92).

    Notice the the Neisser paper acknowledges Lynn's findings for a slightly higher IQ but that even he "concedes that the achievements of these Asian Americans far outstrip what might have been expected on the basis of their test scores."

    From my research, the "Asian Effect" completely disappears once Asians become fully Americanized, that is by the third or fourth generation. By then perceived advantages become nominal or even immeasurable.

    I did find this more recent link:

    The abstract has this intriguing observation:

    In trying to explain the achievement patterns, researchers have largely limited their investigations to one of two contrasting hypotheses involving (a) hereditary differences in intelligence between Asians and Whites and (b) Asian cultural values that promote educational endeavors. Research findings have cast serious doubt over the validity of the genetic hypothesis. Yet, there has been a failure to find strong empirical support for alternative hypothesis concerning cultural values. It is proposed, under the concept of relative functionalism, that Asian Americans perceive, and have experienced, restrictions in upward mobility in careers or jobs that are unrelated to education. Consequently, education assumes importance, above and beyond what can be predicted from cultural values.

    It's more recent, from 2009. Unfortunately, I am no longer at university and so do not have access. Do you?

    I haven't had time to review the video you linked but look forward to doing so later. Thanks!

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    @jp1692 - no, I don't have access either. I graduated in 2015.

    So, you're making the point that the Asian-American mean IQ is only slightly higher than that of whites and Asian performance is far greater than mean IQ would indicate on its own. Well there may be other factors - cultural, even dietary - that may be involved, I don't know.

    The same paper discusses the lower mean IQs of African-Americans and Native Indians, too.

    It may be difficult for some people to accept but it seems that different groups of people have different mean IQs.

    From what I remember, men and women have the same mean IQ but the distribution is different between the sexes. Women cluster around the mean and men have more variety in their IQ scores.

    This means that there are more stupid men than stupid women ... but also that there are more male geniuses than female geniuses.

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