Firstborn of all Creation - What does it refer too?

by JW Answers 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  slimboyfat

  I agree that the way the early church spoke about, to and related to Jesus is different than JWs. Isn’t this mostly accounted for by the fact that many in the early church knew Jesus personally or had an encounter with the resurrected Jesus as Paul did? For example Stephen spoke directly to God and Jesus when he saw them in a vision. I dare say if a JW saw Jesus at the right hand of God they would have no problem speaking to him and addressing him Lord too.

  The JW practice of addressing songs and prayers to the Father does seem to follow the biblical pattern and instruction.
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  waton

  The JW practice of addressing songs and prayers to the Father does seem to follow the biblical pattern and instruction. sbf

  Except that there is no record of Jesus ever using the name of the father to adress him, did the early christians brake that precedent, pattern, model? The "Lord's prayer" instructions, as wt adherents do?

  Jesus seems to have honoured the father by not naming him, which could put him on an equal footing so to speak. father always retaining priority, passing down life, existence.

  not endorsing just commenting on the story as is.
  
  
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  slimboyfat

  Didn’t the Jewish Talmud say Jesus performed miracles using God’s name? Coptic texts depict Jesus as using various forms of the divine name including Yaho. If the Shem Tob version of Matthew reflects an original Hebrew version then doesn’t Jesus use God's name in that version too? When Jesus read from the scroll of Isaiah wouldn’t he have used the divine name when it occurs in the text? Copies of the Old Testament in Jesus’ day in Hebrew and Greek used forms of the divine name. Later Christian versions of the Old Testament replace the divine name with Lord. Plus Jesus prayed “let your name be sanctified”, and “I have made made your name known”. Could any Jew have talked about the “name of God” without having the Tetragrammaton in mind? The idea that Jews didn’t use God's name in Jesus’ day is out of date and has little to support it. So I think there is at least some evidence Jesus used God’s name.
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  Steel

  I was raised evangelical and I can assure you a one hour motivational speech on Sunday morning is nothing compared to the WTS. Also don't try and tell me some of these nutty fringe groups like potters house or westbourgh baptist church represent the evangelical church.

  Kids dying over blood transfusions

  Parents shunning there own children

  Taking all the fun things out of childhood

  boring boring assemblies

  attacking higher education

  just the shear bloody waste of time of it all.

  Its really sad to see ex dubs are just as stupid as the ones still in.
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  cofty

  I was raised evangelical and I can assure you a one hour motivational speech on Sunday morning is nothing compared to the WTS. - Steel

  Then you were at the extreme soft end of the evangelical spectrum.

  As I said Google ex-christian forums to meet thousands of people who disagree with you. Or carry on living in a bubble and insulting those who disagree. Your choice.
  
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  Steel

  Oh please please please explain to us the horrible consequences of leaving the evangelical church's since you are a double cult survivor.😱

  I think the only reason you left the WTS is because you couldn't stand not being the biggest asshole in the room.
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  cofty

  So you chose option two. Okay.