Doubting the Trinity and Paradise

by ClassAvenger 44 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • starScream
    starScream

    pamkw, (and DJ)

    I bought the whole trinity thing, figured I didn't understand it so I would take it on faith.

    The trinity is pretty easy to understand. There are a lot of people that are really bad at explaining it.

    If God is so smart and organaized what's with all the mystery.

    Perhaps organization and intelligence do not clash with mystery as much as you seem think. The CIA is pretty organized and has elite minds working for them but you don't know what they are doing.

    Now that I don't know what I am I don't care.

    I wonder how important Jesus ever was to you. It sounds like you may have been checking out Church or giving it a try instead of making Jesus Lord of your life and focusing on him.

    DJ,

    My mom won't hear me. Whatever the elders say is true no matter what.

    My mom is equally brain dead.

    My dad however, recently listened very intensely when I read Isa 44:24 and Job 9:8 to him from his bible. He asked me if it really says "alone".

    one of about a billion reasons Jesus is God. Its amazing people say they believe the bible but can't grasp such a simple thing. Shouldn't surprise us. Jesus was rejected by his own people that should have known better than any of us.

    He went deep into thought for a minute but when I started to attribute creation to Jesus, he looked at me very angrily with the same look that the elders use

    So is he a JW?

    he looked at me very angrily with the same look that the elders use to give me whenever I mentioned Jesus for longer than they thought was necessary.

    For people that claim to be his only disciples they sure don't seem to like hearing about him all that much. I remember them saying that Jesus was our example. And when they would ask who is our example you are supposed to say "Jesus." Did Jesus point to himself as an example? They also mention his sacrifice like once a year and make it clear enough to me that it was for adam's sin and now the whole world can work out their salvation because Jesus has opened the door by which people can save themeselves (through the WTBTS of course). I remember one or two times that Jesus was specifiaclly mentioned as being our Lord. The Elder giving the talk was asking what Jesus' role was for us and answered his own question by saying he is "our lord" meaning he is the head of the WTBTS and they speak for him. So the WTBTS is like our lord in a way.

    At least with the dub thinking he gave some credit to Jesus as the master worker....but now he must be thinking that Jesus had nothing to do with it.

    So he is a JW? and you think you have forced him as a JW to not accept Jesus as having anything to do with the creation so he can preserve his "Jesus is not God" doctrine?

    Any suggestions?

    I dont know enough about him.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    DJ said:

    My mom won't hear me. Whatever the elders say is true no matter what.

    That is a shame. There was a time when my Mom and Dad were close to being like that. Then, I started showing them several, SEVERAL major and minor contradictions on the Watchtower Library CD-ROM, and I showed them all of the SilentLambs Articles, and all of the Blood Transfusion Confusion, and my Parents now have major, major doubts about the Watchtower Society. I thank Jesus Christ my Lord for helping my Parents to start having major doubts. I have been praying to my Father and to Jesus and to The Holy Spirit for close to 3 years now asking God to help set my Parents free from the Watchtower Society's control, and that my Parents come to Jesus for salvation. I have not yet come to the point of trying to tell my Parents about the Trinity, because I am pretty sure that at this stage, they would still reject the teachings of the Trinity, the Soul, and Hell. I have convinced my Parents that the Watchtower Society is wrong about Jesus not being the Mediator for the Great Crowd! I showed 1 Timothy 2:5-6 to my Parents, and they are convinced that Jesus is the Mediator for ALL True Christians: 1 Timothy 2:5-6 (NWT): For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. My Parents never even knew that the Watchtower Society taught that Jesus was only the Mediator for the 144,000! My Parents had always believed that Jesus was their Mediator in Heaven! My Parents were very surprised about that, and my Parents believe that it was an "Apostate" who snuck in and wrote those Articles about Jesus not being the Mediator for the Other Sheep. (If anyone needs the Watchtower Quotes about Jesus not being the Mediator for the Great Crowd, just send me a JWD Private Message, or E-Mail me at [email protected] and I will be more than happy to give you the Quotes) DJ said:

    My dad however, recently listened very intensely when I read Isa 44:24 and Job 9:8 to him from his bible. He asked me if it really says "alone". He went deep into thought for a minute but when I started to attribute creation to Jesus, he looked at me very angrily with the same look that the elders use to give me whenever I mentioned Jesus for longer than they thought was necessary. I thought it was best to just leave my dad with his thoughts about what "alone" means for now rather than push him. I do have to get back to him soon with it though, because I guess he must be rather confused. I can't imagine what he must be thinking. Atleast with the dub thinking he gave some credit to Jesus as the master worker....but now he must be thinking that Jesus had nothing to do with it. Oh, what did I do? I just pray that he is receptive and that I can get some time with him alone. He is very sick with brain cancer and I am hopeful that I can reach his heart with this. I almost feel like it isn't the right timing because of his med's and the confusion that his disease causes but I can't leave him where I did. Any suggestions? I pray that he doesn't freak on me. love, dj

    It sounds like you are in a really, really difficult situation. I hope and pray that I can help you. I think it might be very helpful to show your Father Hebrews 1:8 and Hebrews 1:10: Hebrews 1:8 (NWT): But with reference to the Son: "God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. [...] (Verse 10:) And: "You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. You could explain to your Father that in Hebrews 1:10, God The Father is saying that Jesus Christ, as Lord [actually "Jehovah" from the Septuagint], in the beginning (Genesis 1:1) created Heaven and Earth. And, you could show him where Hebrews 1:10 is quoting from in the Old Testament: Psalm 102:21-25: For the name of Jehovah to be declared in Zion And his praise in Jerusalem, When the peoples are collected all together, And the kingdoms to serve Jehovah. On the way he afflicted my power, He cut short my days. I proceeded to say: O my God, Do not take me off at the half of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself, And the heavens are the work of your hands. Psalm 102 is a prayer to JEHOVAH, but Hebrews 1:10 says that it refers to JESUS. You could also show him these Scriptures (NWT): John 1:3: All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. John 1:10: He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him. Colossians 1:16-17: because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, And then you can show him those two Verses you showed him before, so he can compare them with the Verses above: Isaiah 44:24: This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: "I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me? Job 9:8: Stretching out the heavens by himself And treading upon the high waves of the sea; I like the King James Version of Job 9:8: Job 9:8 (KJV): Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea. That shows that God is the only One who has the power and authority to walk on water (unless He grants that ability to others, like He did with Peter). I hope this information helps.

  • ClassAvenger
    ClassAvenger

    DJ, Im sorry to hear that about your dad. Thanks for all the information you sent me, it is really, really, really helpful. Thanks a lot.

  • RevMalk
    RevMalk

    The answer is real simple. Jehovah of the OT was Jesus Christ, but on earth as a human, his name was Jesus, which explains, obviously, why the name "Jehovah" is only present in the OT.

    I don't have time to go into too much detail, you can research this stuff for yourself, but that's why the Bible seems to contradict itself. Jesus is NOT the Almighty, but he IS Jehovah, but Jehovah IS NOT God Almighty. It's really that simple, yet for centuries man has been scratching their heads furiously over this..... Rev ---------- LambsRoar.org

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Hi RevMalk,

    You said:

    The answer is real simple. Jehovah of the OT was Jesus Christ, but on earth as a human, his name was Jesus, which explains, obviously, why the name "Jehovah" is only present in the OT.

    I agree with that.

    RevMalk said:

    Jesus is NOT the Almighty, but he IS Jehovah, but Jehovah IS NOT God Almighty. It's really that simple, yet for centuries man has been scratching their heads furiously over this.....

    I don't agree with that.

    Jehovah is the Almighty God:

    Genesis 17:1: And when Abram was ninety nine years old, Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him, I am the Almighty God! Walk before me and be perfect;

    Exodus 6:2-3: And God spoke to Moses and said to him, I am Jehovah. And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, and by My name JEHOVAH I have not been known to them.

  • thinker
    thinker

    Most everyone is addressing the trinity, so let me try the paradise issue:

    Armageddon and God's purpose

    The Watchtower teaches that in Isaiah it says the wolf will lie down with the sheep. And no animals or brute-natured men will do any harm in all the earth because Jehovah will be ruling over the earth from heaven with the 144,000 joint-heirs with Christ. Then there'll be the resurrection of all those in the memorial tombs to life on earth.

    This prophecy in Isaiah chapter 11 applied to Israel of old, not to us today or in the future. Verses 11 and 12 show that the symbolic language of all these preceding verses referred to the regathering of Israel and Judah.

    The Watchtower sees this as a double prophesy.

    But all the promises made to the real Israel haven't come true yet. Don't they have to come true for Israel before they can come true for us?

    God has yet to keep this promise: 'And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD God.' (Amos 9:15). Or again in Jeremiah 24:6, 'For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and will not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.’ We might argue that the Jews have been returned to their land in the past, but we could hardly argue that they have not been plucked up from it afterwards. Therefore, this promise awaits fulfillment.

    The Watchtower believes Israel is a government as well as a false religion, and God has vowed to destroy all forms of both. The Bible says all Israel will be saved, yet JWs say God is going to kill them all; spiritual Israel is going to be saved, not fleshly Israel.

    Who makes up spiritual Israel? According to the Watchtower it's anointed Christian Witnesses of Jehovah. And JWs are in the true religion, Jehovah’s organization, so that they won't be destroyed.

    Can only true believers be saved?

    'We have rested our hope on a living God, who is a Savior of ALL men ('sorts of' is not in the Greek and appears only in the New World Translation), especially of faithful ones.' (1 Timothy 4:10)

    Paul strongly implies that God is the savior of unfaithful ones (or 'unbelievers'). Russell taught that this meant all men would be brought into the Millennium and there be put on trial for everlasting life. But, however you want to look at the word 'saved' you can't get around the fact that Paul says, in effect, that unbelievers will be saved.

    There are many Scriptures that show a great destruction of lives in Armageddon and at the same time we read of unbelievers being saved and turning to the Lord: 'All the ends of the world shall remember the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship thee.' (Psalm 22:27) 'Be still and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.' (Psalm 46:10) Russell taught that Isaiah 26:9, 10 referred to the wicked being in the Millennium on earth under God's kingdom, but remaining wicked there, (after a trial period of l00 years) eventually being destroyed:

    'for when thy judgments are in the earth,' (his 'will being done on earth' by his kingdom), 'the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness,' (they had been unrighteous so that it is necessary for them to learn righteousness). 'Let favor be showed to the wicked,' (in the Millennium), 'yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness,' (the earth under God's kingdom), 'will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.'

    Russell taught that everyone would make it into the Millennium (with the exception of the spirit-begotten who had committed the unforgivable sin) and there be taught the Truth and be put on trial for life then. He taught that only spiritual Israel is on trial for life now because only they are well acquainted with the Truth and anointed with the holy spirit.

    Witnesses believe that the only way in which one can sin against the holy spirit is by going against its leading. Can one go against the holy spirit's leading if the holy spirit is not leading one?Are worldly people being led by the holy spirit?

    Since the holy spirit isn't leading them, can they sin against it?

    Matthew 12:31, 32 'On this account I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.’

    According to that, the people of the world can be forgiven.

    The Watchtower used to teach that the destruction happened in the Millennium, in which everyone was being taught and led by the spirit, so that it was possible for them to sin against its leading. The old interpretation harmonizes the contradictory thought of everyone being saved, and many being destroyed.

    Christ's death was for everyone; it was salvation from the death brought on by Adam: 'He, by the grace of God, should taste death for every man.' 'For as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive.' (Hebrews 2:9; Corinthians 15:22) 1 Timothy 2:4 (God) 'who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto an accurate knowledge of the truth.' Notice that being saved precedes the learning of the Truth; they are saved into the Millennium first, where the curse of Adamic death is lifted from them and where they are then taught the Truth.

    1 John 2:2 'And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for our sins only, but also for the whole world's.'Christ's sacrifice wasn't just for the sins of Jehovah's Witnesses, but also ‘for the whole world's’.

    The Watchtower expects God to destroy all non-Witnesses any day now. They're very sure that he will because he likens our day to the time of Noah where all those outside the ark were destroyed. God's organization is the ark today according to them.

    But in Matthew 24:36-39 where Jesus makes this reference to Noah's time, he points out especially that the parallel consists of ignorance by all but a select few of the coming event. The destruction was not in Jesus' mind, just the attitude of the people. Ask yourself this, "Will the people of Noah's day be resurrected?"And if they are resurrected in the Millennium will they have the opportunity to live forever if they remain faithful?

    And the Watchtower says that people today are like the people of Noah's time?

    And this means that they'll all be destroyed?

    And so, too, the people today will be resurrected in the Millennium and be given an opportunity to live forever if they remain faithful.

    Why would God destroy them if he's just going to resurrect them again?

    You could ask the same question of Noah's contemporaries, yet JWs have no objection to their being resurrected. Actually, I don't think they will be destroyed in Armageddon at all. The Watchtower says that people of the world today will go into the second death from which there is no resurrection. Why should they? When have they died the first time? When have they sinned against the holy spirit so as to become unforgivable? The Watchtower Society held for many decades that only spirit-begotten Christians who had died once already to their former course of life and were being led by the holy spirit could die a second death by abandoning the spirit's guidance.

    Remember that God 'especially saves' believers. These faithful ones have a higher hope, the heavenly hope of being one of the 144,000 reigning with Christ over the earth in the Millennium. This greater reward carries a greater punishment for unfaithfulness -- dying the second death.

    Since we are in this old system now, who is running things? Satan is the ruler of this old world. 2 Corinthians 4:4 calls him the 'god of this system of things.'

    The whole verse reads, 'the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.' So Satan as god of this system, who has the whole world lying in his power as 1 John 5:19 informs us, has the power to blind people to the Truth so as to prevent them from becoming believers.

    Could he do this unless Jehovah allowed it, or is he mightier than Jehovah God?

    Satan couldn't do anything unless Jehovah permitted it, and he's permitting it in order to prove that we are free to choose which is better: God's rulership over us or Satan's.

    JWs admit that God has allowed Satan to blind everyone in the world so as not to become believers, and they say God is going to destroy all unbelievers.

    Don't you see how unjust it would be to destroy everyone who didn't see something because you allowed them to be blinded? Please tell me how it is justice to destroy them for their blindness? This is why Russell taught that everyone would make it into the Millennium and there 'the eyes of the blind shall be opened', then 'the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea' (Isaiah 35:5; 11:9). Under these conditions God could judge the world in righteousness since they would no longer be blind and would have full knowledge of God and be enabled to make an educated decision between Him and Satan: 'Because he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness.' (Acts 17:31).

    But what about the preaching JWs do door-to-door?

    Showing light to blind men can't open their eyes. How can you, in a few minutes at the door, cut through a lifetime of prejudice against you, turn them against their own beliefs they've relied on throughout their lives? They won't listen to you long enough or with a mind open enough to receive what you're giving. That doesn't make them evil any more than a blind man is to be blamed for his inability to see. If the Watchtower suddenly ran out of ink and the Society grew tired of their 'preaching', they'd be quoting Revelation 22:11 ‘He that is doing unrighteousness, let him do unrighteousness still; and let the filthy one be made filthy still.’ If people are judged on the basis of their reaction to your message, they all must get a full opportunity to understand it in their own minds and hearts as the absolute Truth without a shadow of a doubt.

    But what about those scenes of destruction in Revelation where the symbolic Babylon the Great Harlot and the Wild Beast and its image, among others, are destroyed?

    What do these symbolic beings represent? False religion and the U.N. These will be destroyed by God's Kingdom which has promised to put an end to all rival kingdoms, be they religious or governmental.

    Let's say that I'm a member of some financial institution that suddenly goes bankrupt and dissolves. Let's say it's 'destroyed by inflation' just as many banks were broken by the depression. What would this mean to me as a member of this institution?

    I would be financially embarrassed, but would I be destroyed, becoming as nonexistent as the institution of which I was a member? Of course not.

    So, then, I can be a member of such other institutions as, Babylon the Great Empire of False Religion and the United Nations, or at least a member of one of its member nations. I can be a member of these institutions and when they are destroyed I will remain in existence.

    False religion is not people, and neither is government people. They are abstract institutions which may come and go without harming a soul. A JW's own experience illustrates this. How many times has a 'truth' you held as a Jehovah's Witness been dropped in favor of a 'new truth'? So what once constituted your religion is no longer truth; it doesn't exist anymore, it has been destroyed. But have you yourself ever been destroyed even once in all the times that you've destroyed false beliefs from your religion?

    False religion can be destroyed without destroying people; you are a living, surviving example of it. Changes in government have also been made occasionally throughout history without killing any people. God will destroy the false beliefs by teaching people the Truth in the Millennium, and man-rule will give way to God-rule.

    When Revelation says: 'And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her, my people if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.," it's contrasting Babylon the Great with people, and so clearly shows that Babylon is not people. According to the Watchtower's own book Babylon the Great has Fallen, God's Kingdom Rules!, Babylon fell in the year 1918. Did a lot of people fall down when Babylon the Great fell back then?

    If people didn't fall when Babylon the Great fell, then when Babylon the Great is destroyed, people won't be destroyed either. Isn't that consistant?

    Revelation 18:4 says that people in this institution will share part of its plagues. This is just like my example of the financial institution. I would suffer hardship and be financially embarrassed by its demise, but this means I will share in only part of its plagues: it won't mean my demise. Members of Babylon the Great, then, will suffer reproach and ridicule for having put all their faith in something so patently false. In this way they will share in part of its plagues. Babylon the Great will be totally destroyed, but the Scripture nowhere states that people would share the same fate. It says 'part'; therefore, they cannot be destroyed.

    Revelation 7:14 'they are the ones that come out of the great tribulation and they have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.'

    Does it say that these are the only ones that survive Armageddon? The great crowd is said to attribute salvation to God and Christ after the great tribulation, as well as to wash in the blood of Christ after coming through the tribulation. This shows, then, that mankind will recognize and turn to God after the time of trouble in which false beliefs and systems of government are destroyed.

    The great crowd are being contrasted to the 144,000. The latter are a heavenly class that does not go through the great tribulation, and the former are a heavenly class that does go through it. Yet there is still room for an earthly class made up of unbelievers which goes through and survives the tribulation. JWs can't accept that because they say the great crowd is an earthly class. In verse 15 of Revelation it says that they are before the throne. What is before God's throne? His foot-stool. And what is his footstool? The earth. 'This is what Jehovah has said: "The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool."' according to Isaiah 66:1.

    But in verse eleven 'the older persons and the four living creatures fell upon their faces before the throne'. Does that mean they are on earth, too? No, they are clearly in heaven.

    Then being 'before the throne' isn't very good proof that one is on earth. It says that the great crowd are serving God day and night in his temple. Since God resides in heaven, these people must be in heaven also. How can the great crowd serve God 'in his temple' by working along with and cooperating with the remnant of the 144,000 on earth as they direct the preaching work if the remnant only remain on earth a short while before going to heaven? How can the great crowd work along side them day and night after the tribulation if they’re no longer there?

    Revelation says 'in', not 'with', not 'under', not 'in cooperation with', but 'in' his temple. God's temple is heaven according to Hebrews 11. Jesus said 'In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you.' (John 14:2). Many abodes must have many occupants. Therefore, the great crowd must be heavenly.

    Why not allow the Bible to interpret itself and tell us if the great crowd is heavenly or earthly? Revelation 19:1 'After these things I heard what was a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said, "Praise Jah, you people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God.'

    Where is the great crowd that attributes salvation to God? In heaven.

    Look at Psalm 45:9-11 'The daughters of kings are among your precious women. The queenly consort has taken her stand at your right hand in gold of Ophir. Listen, O daughter, and see, and incline your ear; And forget your people and your father's house. And the king will long for your prettiness. For he is your Lord, so bow down to him.'

    That's talking about the bride of Christ, the 144,000.

    Now verses 13 through 15:

    "The king's daughter is all glorious within the house; Her clothing is with settings of gold. In woven apparel she will be brought to the king. The virgins in her train as her companions are being brought into you. They will be brought with rejoicing and joyfulness; They will enter into the palace of the king."

    If the daughter of the king is Christ's bride of 144,000 spirit-begotten individuals, then who are the 'virgins in her train' who enter into the king's palace? This palace of the king can be nothing else but heaven. So who is this group that enters heaven in conjunction with the 144,000?

    Since Revelation has already shown a great crowd in heaven, it must be justified in assuming 'the virgins in her train' are these same people who make up the great crowd. They follow the anointed to heaven and take a lesser place there.

    Russell actually taught that the great crowd was made up of spirit-begotten ones who didn't quite live up to the high requirements of the 144,000 class. But this didn't make them unworthy of any salvation whatsoever; they merely were granted a lesser station in heaven. 2 Timothy 2:20 was one Scripture that suggested this to his mind: 'Now in a large house' (heaven) 'there are vessels not only of gold and silver' (the 144,000) 'but also of wood and earthenware, and some for an honorable purpose but others for a purpose lacking honor.' The wood and earthenware vessels represent the great crowd who had less honor than the other group. But perhaps the best argument for the great crowd being a heavenly class is the fact that they are said to serve God day and night in his temple. Who was it that served in this manner in typical Israel? It was the high priests and the Levites. If the high priests represented the 144,000, who do the Levites represent? Certainly it must be this other group who are said to serve day and night in the temple: the great crowd. The temple, of course, represents heaven. Recall also that the Levites had no inheritance in the land according to Joshua 14:4 and 18:7, the great crowd, as prefigured by them, must not be a land-based group either, but must be heavenly.

    Jesus' referred to his 'little flock' and his 'other sheep' in John 10.

    What is there to indicate that one class is earthly rather than just having a slightly less honorable heavenly position? Jesus says, 'and I have other sheep. These also I must bring, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.' What can this mean but that he brings them to heaven with the 'little flock'? How else could he bring them together unless he brought them together where they are in heaven?

    The other mention of the 144,000 is at Revelation 14:1:

    'And I saw, and look! The Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads… And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the older persons; and no one was able to master the song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been brought from the earth.'

    There's nothing there that rules out the possibility of others being brought from the earth, the only implication is that these are the only ones brought from the earth who could master the song.

    Consider the 144,000 themselves. How do we know, Revelation being a book of symbols, that this is a literal number? If the torment of the Devil in the book of Revelation is symbolic and not literal, how do we know this number is literal? It seems more logical and consistent to think of it as symbolic of perfect organization. This number is based on twelve, being twelve squared times a thousand. And if we look at chapter 21 and verses 15-17 of this same book we see the number once again, only this time it is used in the measurements of 'the holy city, New Jerusalem' which is said to be '144 cubits' across one of its walls, and 12,000 furlongs in height, breadth, and length. Since this city is merely symbolic of heaven and has no real existence, what must we conclude about the same numbering system used in connection with the 12,000 individuals from each of the 12 tribes of Israel that make up the infamous 144,000? And why should the Bible go to such great pains to delineate each and every tribe of Israel and mention that there are exactly 12,000 from each named? Isn't this symbolic? Or are anointed Christians really divided into twelve tribes?

    1 Timothy 4:l0: 'God is a Savior of all men, especially of believers.'

    David was an adulterer but God forgave him.

    And David will be resurrected in the Millennium and have an opportunity to live forever.

    The men of Sodom and Gomorrah were fornicators and their men laid with men.

    And the people of Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected and given an equal opportunity to live forever.

    And the people of Noah's time were drunkards and thieves and revilers and extortioners and murderers, they were so wicked that God had to wipe them off the face of the earth.

    And yet they too will be resurrected and live forever if they reform.

    And so, all these types of 'wicked people' mentioned by Paul will, in fact, be in the Millennium according to the Watchtower.

    So the only point in dispute is whether people living today will make it into the millennium if they are unbelievers or 'wicked.'

    Only in the Millennium will it be possible to be righteous, and only then can anyone be judged on the basis of their righteousness. The Bible says that 'there is not a righteous man, not even one,' in Romans 3:10. If that is true, then no one will be saved at all if we accept the Watchtower's interpretation of Peter's words.

    Let's assume for a moment that no provision had been made for man's salvation and he had to rely on his own righteousness as under the Mosaic Law. Peter says that under such circumstances a righteous man would scarcely be saved. That is, a righteous man would live by means of fulfilling the Law completely, and then would just scarcely be saved with no extra merit. Further, if God had arranged for salvation only for the righteous, there'd be none for any sinner. But since the Bible tells us that everyone is a sinner and at the same time tells us that many will be saved and sinners will be resurrected, we can safely assume that Peter's words do not contradict this thought -- they merely point out that without the merciful provision of God's forgiveness through Jesus' sacrifice, none of us would live.

    As for the Watchtower being the 'ark of salvation', if you insist on likening Armageddon to past destructions, where all those who perished will be resurrected in the Millennium, then everyone who dies at Armageddon should likewise be resurrected in the Millennium.

    'But as for those cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.' (Revelation 21:8). This 'second death' for the wicked comes 'after the thousand years have ended' according to the previous chapter, and after a new heaven and earth have come into existence according to the beginning of the same chapter. It would almost seem to be saying that those who had persisted in being liars, murderers, etc., after the thousand years of judgment would be judged unworthy of life and go into the second death.

    From about 1954 to 1965 the Watchtower taught that Adam, Eve, Cain, the inhabitants of Sodom, Gomorrah, and the antediluvian world would not be resurrected. But now the Society says merely that Adam and Eve won't be resurrected. What was the reason for this change?

    They recognized from Scripture that those of Sodom and Gomorrah would be there on judgment day. They know the unrighteous will be brought back to life, and so they can't say who will or won't be there. But they know Adam and Eve won't be because they were perfect beings. It's a much more serious matter for a perfect being to sin. We have the excuse of our inherited imperfection. But their sin came from their own initiative since they were perfect.

    So, the change came from an understanding that a perfect person is responsible for his sin to the point of meriting the 'second death', whereas an imperfect person isn't responsible to that point because they have inherited sinful tendencies.

    Is anyone perfect today? And will anyone be made perfect before Armageddon?

    If the unbelievers and wicked people at Armageddon will be imperfect just as they are today, then will they be responsible for their sin to the point of meriting the second death?

  • DJ
    DJ

    Star :

    Yes, my dad is a jw! That's why it was so important for him to grasp the "alone" words in Isa. and Job. He of course believes that Jehovah had a helper in the creation, Jesus...the master worker thing, you know!!

    Undis:

    Thanks for all of those, and Hebrews1:10 is the one that I started with, but that's when my dad got that angry look. He knew what I was insinuating and it made him mad. If he wasn't so sick, I would have continued but I stopped because he looked very disturbed. I know how difficult it was for me to get out of the wt teachings and I have to admit that I don't feel so great about confusing my dad while he is dying. If it was not a brain disease that would be different too. This disease can cause him to get very confused at times and mood swings, etc. I will attempt it again, you can count on that but it is a very delicate situation and he may get extremely upset with me. I was shunned before he got sick. If this disease didn't affect his thoughts and emotions, I would be hammering him with his own bible for his own sake. Keep this in prayer, will you please? I am so happy about your parents!!! I shared the mediatorship teaching of the jw's with my mom before and she was shocked at first but...as usual she met with the elders and said that they told her He was her mediator just not in the strictest sense, blah, blah, blah..she said that she personally believes that Jesus is her mediator and that's that. She is either becoming 'apostate' or she is in a denial about what they teach.. She is 72 and has been under a lot of stress because of my dad's illness for the past 2 years. They need prayers!! I pray that your parents will fully be able to deprogram all of the lies and be filled with the Holy Spirit. love, dj

    Class avenger,

    You are very welcome. I only cut and pasted though. The trinity is the toughest thing to get through to a jw. They are convinced of it's evilness, that is their main thing! The list that I gave you is nowhere near complete but it should be enough to help you stand firm. Their minds have been so twisted that you will get frustrated until you feel like you are gonna collapse from their circular talk. Hang tight and anytime you have a question I hope that you will come here for support and pray A LOT!! love, dj

    Thinker,

    I hope to read your post later.

  • RevMalk
  • RevMalk
    RevMalk


    Let me rephrase that. I don't believe Jesus/Jehovah is God the Father - AND, I don't care what the Bible says, because it's not reliable, haha. Rev ---------- LambsRoar.org

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    RevMalk said:

    Let me rephrase that. I don't believe Jesus/Jehovah is God the Father

    I agree with you on that.

    RevMalk said:

    - AND, I don't care what the Bible says, because it's not reliable, haha.

    Well, I believe it depends on the Translation. The New World Translation has been corrupted and altered.

    I believe the King James Version and the English Majority Text Version are the most accurate Translations.

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