The Church Father's "70 years" (page 2)

Doug Mason

My intention in posting these quotations is to show that the Church Fathers cited by the WTS's letter do not support the WTS's position on the "70 years" in any way.

I confirmed this by also citing Eusebius.

Doug

BORG OFF

Hi Doug,

Fantastic post exactly what I was looking for

thanks

Doug Mason

I want to acknowledge the stimulus I received from a certain person who provided me with these quotations and then asked me for my comments.

We agreed that the information should be shared here.

Doug

Doug, you achieved what you intended. The WT quoted the Early Church Fathers as if they supported their claim. You have shown they did not although they do mention 70 year periods. Typically the WT has been unscrupulous in quoting authorities (some of them questionable ones in this case) and misquoted the thrust of their commentaries.

The only 70 year period was the time when Babylon held sway in the region. This was not directed at the Israelites it was simply the dominant empire. Secondly in view of the prevailing illiteracy of the common people and the mystique attributed to the written word, it would have been easy to tell it as a prophecy retrospectively in 539 BCE when Babylon fell to Persia. This of course is what the writer of the book of Daniel was playing on in the second century BCE. It is that specific piece of fictitional literature which gave rise to so many apocalyptic cults and adventist movements including Russellites and consequently JWs.

If the JW org did start to use references like authentic researchers and genuine scholars do, it would be final curtains for them. The article writers would wake up to the Watchtower deceptions and all hell would break loose. That's why they stay within the un-scholarly habit of demanding belief without evidence.

Doug Mason

Thank you, Half banana,

You raise an issue I have not, and that is the dates of the writings, such as Daniel. It was written in 164 BCE to and for those people at that time.

The Book of Daniel was a product of the apocalyptic eschatology that arose during the Second Temple Period with writings such as Enoch, Jubilees, and so on, as well as the rise of the Dead Sea community. Most Christian beliefs come from this period, rather than from the Hebrew Scriptures (OT), such as Satan and a war in heaven,

Another interest is the date and purpose of Chronicles. That was composed in the 4th century because the writers did not agree with or accept the religious political views of Kings. That record, in turn was composed as part of the Deuteronomistic History.

Another matter is how the ancients thought about the meaning of numbers such as 70. The term is gematria.

Also, how they thought about recording history. They were not journalists. They recorded past events to give meaning to their present.

Finally, their texts experienced fluidity as it was being rewritten on fresh scrolls. No one knows what was originally written.

Doug

Crazyguy2

PeacefulPete has the right idea, the real 70 year curse was on Babylon . Most likely it was written about and these writings were later changed to make it as though it was about the desolation by Babylon of the areas around the levant then later changed again to make look as though it was talking only about the Jews.

This is not the only text found in the Bible that was stolen from another source then edited. Noah’s flood , Sampson and the writings of Anumope are just a few examples.

scholar

Half banana

Secular history finds no obvious 70 year period of exile and desolation. The attacks on Jerusalem clearly happened after Babylon had become the dominant power By 609 BCE. One of the sieges of Jerusalem was in 597 BCE when Jehoiakim and his son Jehoiachin were taken along with the Israel's elite.The major military siege and destruction of Jerusalem was completed by 586BCE. Jerusalem however was then desolated but the land especially to the north (Benjamin) has archaeological occupancy layers. No one outside JWs and the book of Ezra can find a seventy year desolation of Jerusalem

The seventy years of Jeremiah was a definite historical period of Servitude of Judah to Babylon, an Exile of the Jews in Babylon and the Desolation of Jerusalem, its Temple and Land of Judah from 607 BCE until 537 BCE. These facts are confirmed by secular history and the Ezra, Daniel and Jeemiah.

The attacks on Jerusalem could not have happened in 609 BCE as this was far too early marking possibly the end of Assyria as a World Power thus is too fuzzy a date in order to commence the seventy years. The desolation according to some scholars was only fifty years but this view is simply based on an incorrect chronology which does not account for that definite historical period of seventy years.

If it is true that only JW's and Ezra talk of a literal seventy years then that should be sufficient.

scholar

peacefulpete

Much time has been expended trying to make sense of the 70 years of desolation claimed in parts of the Bible with no success. I have in the past presented what i feel was evidence that the so called desolation was in fact 49 years in duration and was know as such by one of the authors of Daniel. This is the conclusion drawn by most Bible commentaries and reference works. Also the matter of what actually happened verses the Bible's description of "empty land" has been posted here before. It has also been suggested by a number of authors that the significance of certain numbers (eg.3,7,10,12) to ancient superstitious peoples is reason enuf to interpret the 70 (7x10)as literary rather than literal. I ran across an interesting piece of parallelism in Babylonian texts

~~----~~

The seventy years of desolation makes perfect sense so as it describes the biblical narrative perfectly so there is no need to worry about spending much time making sense of it for it is History based on solid Theology.

The desolation being of a period of 49 years is simply nonsense because that is not what the biblical texts say for it is simply a fictional number based on poor exegesis of the Jeremiah texts and of secular history. One only has to consult a number of leading Bible Commentaries and the scholarly literature to see that such a thesis is without scholarly support. The matter of the Empty Land continues to be of great interest to scholars which formed a basis of an International Conference some years ago and the said scholar has a great interest in this subject.

scholar

Doug Mason

The references to the seventy years by the Church Fathers set out in the Society's reply to Lobsto and your quotations certainly confirm our interpretation of those seventy years as being a period of Exile, Desolation of the Land and Servitude to Babylon. You have misread or failed to understand the sources provided or you have your own agenda in this matter. Our vies is also supported by the Jewish Historian, Josephus and the Church Historian, Eusebius but the latter link for Eusebius does not appear to work so if you can post the quotation it would be appreciated without your comment on that quote.

scholar

Doug Mason

Scholar,

The statements by the Church Fathers on "70 years" in no way agree with the Watchtower's position.

Doug

The Church Father's "70 years"

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