A stunning piece of LOGIC from the Apostle Paul

by nicolaou 78 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • nicolaou

    1st Corinthians 15 12-17

    But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith. In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised.
    For if the dead are not raised, then not even has Christ been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile..

    There have always been articulate and intelligent christians on this forum, folks like Little Toe and jgnat who argued their point clearly and engaged with non believers respectfully. One thing I personally was drawn to was their mostly rational approach to the so called 'miracles'.

    I remember Little Toe suggesting that the feeding of the 5000 could be seen as a parable about sharing. Nice.

    But the kindest, most rational Christian just cannot escape Paul's logic quoted above; if Christ is not risen your faith is in vain. The absurdity of all this is that faith is required to believe the very thing that makes faith futile.

  • John_Mann

    In nihilistic view life is absurd and hopeless.

    In Christian view the Christ's Resurrection is indeed an All-in bet.

    Ultimately we face this dichotomy: Nihilism or Christianity. There's no between.

    If you embrace Nihilism you are embracing a hopeless absurd. So it's very strange to use absurdity as a derogatory term to Christianity.

  • slimboyfat

    I can't understand why the idea of resurrection should be incredible. I used to view it that way but not any more. When I thought it was an incredible idea it was because I was convinced that universe only comprises physical things and physical causes, and that science has explained where we came from and where we are likely going. There's not much mystery left and attempts to fill in parts with mystical things like angels and resurrections were just wishful thinking at best.

    But a few things changed my view on this. First of all my worldview was based on a pretty strong inclination that there is no supreme being. If there is a supreme being then it seems to me there should be little problem for him performing a resurrection. Especially now that science offers the prospect of manipulating matter at the level of atoms and of storing massive information. Why shouldn't a supreme being be able to do this if he wishes?

    So, saying that we find the idea of a resurrection incredible amounts to little more than saying we find the idea of a supreme being incredible. And I find that increasinly difficult to say. Because the very fact of our existence and our ability to ponder our existence is itself so strange a self-existent being outside of space and time seems a plausible explanation. And if it is possible that God exists then why shouldn't he perform a resurrection?

    The more we find out about reality the more it seems a purely material explanation does not exhaust all that there is. The prevailing worldview is that the material universe has given rise to life which in turn has given rise to consciousness. But what if it's the other way around? Have you heard of biocentrism?


    The problem with atheist sceptics, I often find, is they are simply not sceptical enough. There is so much about reality we do not know that it is really very premature to be definitively closing doors on any possibilities.

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    God? we don't know, his awfully quiet and all the descriptions of god defended and promoted by all religions don't pass the smell test in the 21st century. Therefore we put Him in the category of ????????, and with a great degree of certainty we can say that if he exists is not well described by any of the main religions, especially the "loving and forgiving" ***hole in the bible.

    Resurrection?. Best known resurrection happened 2000 years ago and the guy promised to come back shortly after his ascension to heaven. If there ever was obvious BS, this qualifies. Two problem

    1. goes to heaven...yeah right

    2. never came back.

  • nicolaou

    Slim, I'm shooting off to work now but promise to give a considered response later. I watched your video in full over my muesli and coffee and couldn't help thinking that Lanza was essentially Chopra without all the word salad.

  • slimboyfat

    Have fun, in my day it was a 5 am start and two deliveries. ;-)

    Yes Lanza has been associated with "the Chopra" but don't hold that against him. He's also a highly respected scientist. I don't know if I'm convinced by biocentrism but it's a surprisingly interesting idea. The nature of reality may be more elusive than many give it credit for. It may be very far from having been all figured out.

  • TheOldHippie

    Well said, slimboyfat. Could (almost) not have formulated it better myself


  • Viviane
    The problem with atheist sceptics, I often find, is they are simply not sceptical enough. There is so much about reality we do not know that it is really very premature to be definitively closing doors on any possibilities.

    Do you know what "skeptic" or "atheist" means? I ask because it seems like you don't.

  • Crazyguy

    There's just to many problems with the New Testament to take any of it seriously. I mean really all the people that believe in the Bible never really studied it or read it with a critical view. I mean go ask any pioneer or elder or CO about the two different stories of christs death and resurrection and they won't have a clue what your talking about. Ask them about the different stories again about his birth and child hood and again they won't have a clue that the gospels are different in the details.

    Another word for faith should be ignorance because one you have knowledge you loose your faith!

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    The problem with atheist sceptics, I often find, is they are simply not sceptical enough.

    Sounds like skepticism is a good thing now!!!! Go figure.

    I guess we should accept the existence of invisible and mute beings (gods, angels, demons) and miracles without questioning, but our skepticism about physical phenomena that is subjected to the rigorous testing of the scientific method is never enough. Got it

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