Prophecy understood when fullfilled

by refiners fire 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  refiners fire

  Pondering upon an old Dub publication from the year 1942 I am caused to speculate upon the powerless nature of the Watchtower God. Perhaps their God is in ‘the privvy’ or is occupied with greater concerns than the fact that His ‘channel of communication’(the FDS) makes a laughing stock of His name in the eyes of anyone who eyes eyes to read and brain cells to think with. Consider this from the 1942 book “THE NEW WORLD” chapter heading “FINAL END AT HAND” It talks about the Kings of the North/ South:

  “The time schedules of the King of the North and the King of the South are inaccurate and unreliable, and shall never be carried through, either in time, or in the events scheduled

  Meanwhile:

  “The prophecies of the One who knows the end from the beginning are sure and dependable. Exactly at His appointed time they will come to pass

  And, assumedly, fulfilment will also take place in the ‘events scheduled’ by that supreme, all knowing one. Yes?

  “When they are fulfilled or in the course of fulfilment He calls it to the attention of those who fear Him

  Strange enough reasoning this. The correct understanding of prophetic fulfilment not being able to be revealed and understood before completion. But, that must surely mean that the understanding ‘revealed’ after or during fulfilment is at least CORRECT or TRUE. Yes? One hopes so. What would be the use of A god who reveals prophetic fulfilment AFTER it is fulfilled and the revealed fulfilment is INCORRECT ??

  “Contrary to the schedules and the wishes of the King of the North and the King of the South in AD 1914 the time limit fixed for the Times of the Gentiles (nations) was reached. There, Satans uninterrupted rule without divine interference ended….That was Therefore, the End of the World”

  An END OF THE WORLD that noone could see! A SYMBOLICAL ‘End of the World’ in which the ‘ended’ world just carried on regardless eating, drinking, voting and marrying oblivious of the fact that the world had ‘ended’ ! Oh powerless and Silly Watchtower God. Little wonder that people scoff at you!

  “It marked also the beginning of the Time of the End for Satans organization….There was war in heaven, that was invisible to human eyes

  More unseeable events, this God is like the gods of the ‘nations around about’ who slash themselves, wail and dance but their god never sends down the FIRE. Considering now the notions of the North/South Kings from this book:

  “The King of the North and the King of the South were the 2 leading combatants in that World war of 1914- 1918. But who are these Kings

  These kings are not individual, fixed kings, rather they are ever changing kings .The book assures us that the King of the North (circa 1942) is:

  “ Rome, which later became Papal Rome, this Papal Rome later becoming the heart of the ‘Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation’. This religious empire is what Vatican City now seeks to restore by means of totalitarian dictators , thereby to exercise world domination from the Vatican

  This attempt by the Vatican to rule the world by means of Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo is declared the fulfilment of Daniel 11 verses 29 thru 31. Now this is all very well, but in the more recent interpretation of The prophecies of Daniel, The book PAY ATTENTION TO DANIELS PROPHECY ( pages 260 thru 262) Readers who care to examine will discover that Daniel 11 Verse 29 thru 31 are fulfilled not by Adolf Hitler and the Pope during World War 2, but by the German Kaiser during World War 1. Therefore the previous interpretation of the book THE NEW WORLD circa 1942 is in error, even though it was, allegedly, a truth ‘revealed during the course of fulfilment’. This being the case even when this channel organization STATES that such and such an event, revealed by God after the event, is fulfilment of prophecy ….they must not be held as being strictly correct, because this ‘revealed understanding’ might later change ( for example when the Nazi Organization ceases to exist after being defeated in war) But I KNOW myself that the Nazis are defeated. I can see that in the newspaper. what the hell do I need the WT ‘channel’ for ??
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  onacruse

  RF, the earliest quote I could get my hands on was (bold added):

  W 3/1/25 p. 67

  What is here stated is not dogmatically stated. Trusting in the Lord for guidance, it is submitted for the prayerful and careful consideration of the anointed ones. If there are readers of the Watch Tower who cannot agree with what is here stated, then it is suggested that such calmly and carefully wait upon the Lord, always keeping a pure heart…It seems to be a safe rule to follow, that prophecy can not be understood by us until it is fulfilled or in the course of fulfillment…

  This was the "Birth of a Nation" article that re-interpreted Rev. 12.

  What a wonderful escape clause they've set up: if we were wrong, it because we were ahead of schedule (not our fault though, because we're God's channel; it was all for the best then, eh?); if we were right (and when did that ever happen?), it's because we're God's channel (and it all worked out for the best, eh?)

  What a sham.

  Craig
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  refiners fire

  Ona:

  "What is here stated is not dogmatically stated.....it is submitted for the prayerful and careful consideration .... If there are readers of the Watch Tower who cannot agree with what is here stated, then it is suggested that such calmly and carefully wait upon the Lord"

  Well,we could spend hours analyzing those words. If its not "dogmatically stated" then why cant anyone disagree? Why do they have to "wait on the Lord" ? is it really a "suggestion"? or is it a matter of necessary belief? If its "submitted for consideration" why cant it be disputed? Is something being "considered" an infallible truth or merely a possibility among many possibilities? If a thing being considered is not a "dogmatic exposition" why is it couched in definite language? etc.
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  onacruse

  RF, what you last posted is so incredibly true. And even more incredible that Ruthy turned right around less than 6 months later and hypocritically said (bold added):

  W 8/15/25 p. 246

  It has been suggested by some that the article on the twelfth chapter of Revelation in March first Watch Tower is of private interpretation. But it is not of private interpretation; it is merely applying to the Scriptures long ago written in prophetic phrase the facts as we know them now to exist. The time has come for this scripture to be understood; and the Lord promised his people, the church, to convey an understanding of it, and those who appreciate it rejoice.

  There are some who have no understanding, as the Psalmist shows, and these the Lord must treat like the horse or the mule. They must be guided by the bridle or held by the bit, since they do not recognize that the Lord is instructing his people and guiding them with his wisdom. Not being anxious to walk with the company of the Lord’s little ones, such accept what doctrines they may choose to accept and walk according to their own individual wisdom…[Psalm 32:9, 10]…This seems to apply to those who have held high places amongst the brethren, who have been privileged to have the truth, but have misused it.
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  refiners fire

  ...'There are some who have no understanding, ... these the Lord must treat like the horse or the mule. They must be guided by the bridle or held by the bit , "....

  Yeah, Im afraid I cant accept being one of the "held by the bit" class.

  Looks like I'll have to get used to the endless burning of the Gehenna lake. I think Id rather, if it comes to a matter of foillowing after such persons.
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  greven

  What use has a prophesy if it can only be explained in retrospection? Isn't that too easy?

  Take for example the prophesies of Nostradamus. They are so vague nobody can predict anything accurately in advance with them. However something out of the ordinary happens and loo and behold: people find a text that seems to be linked to the event. Anybody with some creativity can do this. Too easy no?

  What use is a watchman that shouts: "The Enemy!" when the invasion has already past by?

  Greven
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  JCanon

  However something out of the ordinary happens and loo and behold: people find a text that seems to be linked to the event. Anybody with some creativity can do this. Too easy no?

  Interesting, but the Bible does something superior which is combines EVENTS with chronology. That forces the point. When you have the correct understanding and dates then everything works out.

  For instance, just as a quick example, the 70 weeks prophecy is a double prophecy, fulfilled some during the first 70 weeks for the 1st coming and then again during our date during the second coming. The 70 weeks are periods of 10 jubilees which is the first year of every 49 years. The jubilee is the celebration of the 50th year. It's a time for returning land and returning to the land and freedom. Thus it is interesting with 10 jubilees per 490 years, that 5 periods of 70 weeks, 2450 years, would produce a double jubilee. That is, the 50th jubilee would occur during the 5th 70 weeks from 455BCE, which began the first 70 weeks.

  Thus one would expect with a double jubilee like this, the 50th of the 50th that something special would happen to fulfill this event. Since it's about returning to your land and freedom, of course, one would expect some fulfillment of the natural Jews. The most significant invent relating to returning to homeland and returning land, of course would be the Jews regaining control in Palestine in 1947. Now if that fell on the 50th-50th jubilee one would have to wonder if this was fulfilled prophecy within the prophetic typology of the 70 weeks.

  Well guess what? 1947 IS the 50th jubilee from 455BCE!!! As noted, the jubilees occur every 49 years as the first year. With 10 jubilees per 490 years, 5 70 weeks are 2450 years. Subtract 455BCE from 2450 and you get 1995 + 1 for zero Roman year = 1996. This ends the 5th 70th week and the 50th 49 years. Thus 49 years earlier would be the jubilee of the last 49 years. Subtract 49 from 1996 and you get 1947!

  An accident? No.

  But also note that it is also quite obvious that the Jews return to Palestine could just by the EVENT provide you with dating for other chronology since their return would represent the true "end of the gentile times" which was what the Jews were concerned about. 1947 marks the END of the Jewish exile from their homeland, so the event itself can be used for establishing dating for other Bible prophecy. But its no accident it fulfills the 50th jubilee from 455BCE which marked the first 70 weeks.

  Point being, when you take the entire Bible, the chronology included, then it's harder to simply substitute any old interpretation. It's not up for grabs to the best and most imaginative explanation. The chronology has to work.

  JCanon
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  refiners fire

  J Canon. Im pretty sure that , upon examination, your math will be shonky. If it all added up the way you claim Im sure Grant Jeffrey or Hal Lindsay would have used the jubilee cycles math years ago. I'll sit and add it all up later, when Ive got inclination and a battery in my calculator, then I'll tell you where you went wrong.
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  refiners fire

  Um. Yeah. Im pretty sure Im reading really twisted shit here dude.
  

  QUOTE: "the 70 weeks prophecy is a double prophecy, fulfilled some during the first 70 weeks for the 1st coming and then again during our date during the second coming. The 70 weeks are periods of 10 jubilees which is the first year of every 49 years. The jubilee is the celebration of the 50th year. It's a time for returning land and returning to the land and freedom. Thus it is interesting with 10 jubilees per 490 years, that 5 periods of 70 weeks, 2450 years, would produce a double jubilee. That is, the 50th jubilee would occur during the 5th 70 weeks from 455BCE, which began the first 70 weeks."

  70 x 490 plus 455 divided by the 5th of the 70 week period...sheesh. Look, 70 "weeks", (I suppose) is 490 years. fair enough (for the sake of arguement) but thats as much as I'll concede until you translate your theory into English. When does your cycle calculation commence? Starting date please. Also, 1947ad plus 455 years (bc) is 48 cycles. So what?? Please explain.

  Your theory looks as nutty as the 70 weeks theory postulated by the mad pentecostal Norman Robertson. He reckoned that Gods "70 weeks" clock got stopped for a span of 2000 plus years between 30AD ( week 69) and week 70. All completely incomprehensible of course.

  ........

  Edited. Ahh. I see now ( I Think) 455 plus 1947 = 2402. which divides into 49 cycles of 49. Great!! So what??? The cycle is 50 years. not 49. you cant just throw 50 years away because it doesnt suit your agenda my lad!!
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  blondie

  Still the dogma today, prophecy only understood when it is fulfilled:

  3/15/00 WT

  p. 13 ***Revealed—But in God’s Due Time

  12

  Just as the apostles understood many prophecies concerning the Messiah only after Jesus’ death and resurrection, Christians today understand Bible prophecy in its finest detail only after it has been fulfilled. (Luke 24:15, 27; Acts 1:15-21; 4:26, 27) Revelation is a prophetic book, so we should expect to understand it most clearly as the events it describes unfold. For example, C. T. Russell could not have correctly understood the meaning of the symbolic scarlet-colored wild beast mentioned at Revelation 17:9-11, since the organizations that the beast represents, namely, the League of Nations and the United Nations, did not even exist until after his death.

  Blondie