"Jesus was fully conscience after death"....I would think if one believes that Jesus died and rose from the dead that they actually believe the Bible and if you believe the Bible, you would also believe that the dead are conscience of nothing at all. For Jesus to be actually dead, then it must apply he knew nothing...his thoughts had perished, ( ECC (:5....10) Ps 146:4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground. On that very day his thoughts perish. So either the Scriptures lie about the condition of the dead or they lie about Jesus really being dead, OR Jesus actually died and his Father, Almighty God in heaven resurrected him.
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty 98 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Sea Breeze
@enoughisenough
Do you believe that the bible teaches that money is the answer for everything? Christian churches do not teach this although the bible CLEARLY teaches that money is the answer for everything.
Don't believe me? The scripture is found in the same book that says that the dead "know nothing at all". Here it is:
Eccl. 10: 19 - People prepare a meal for enjoyment, wine makes life joyful, and money is the answer to everything. - NASB (NWT - "money answers every need")
Now, to be consistent, the WT should teach this along side their version of "the dead know nothing at all". But they don't. Neither do Christian churches teach this .... but not for the same reasons. The WT doesn't teach this because people would soon leave the organization to pursue education and other things related to getting as much money as possible. So, they must be inconsistent in order for their organization to survive.
On the other hand, those with even the slightest bit of basic Christian education know that the book of Ecclesiastes is written from a very specific point of view, a carnal one, a physical one, the one our bodies exist in "under the sun". Dozens of times the book reminds the reader that it is a philosophical work from a materialistic point of view - under the sun".
It is a point of view that is ultimately rejected by the writer when he reccommends to fear God and give him glory as early in life as possible before a reprobate mind sets in.
Ps. 146 is simply talking about the body: Remember, the bible assumes that the reader knows we are a tri-partite being and consistently applies personhood to each of the three parts by using pronouns when speaking of each.
King James Bible
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
New King James Version
His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.
Dead souls clearly can remember, talk, reason, feel emotions and complain as clearly illustrated in Rev. 6: 9-11
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.Notice, how dead souls have every bit as much personhood as a physical body.
This kind of confusion is what happens when a man with a 7th grade education who believes that God has entrusted the fate of all humans on earth to him starts a religion as CT Ressell did. -
Sea Breeze
resurrection stories are impossible to reconcile with each other
@peacefulpete
So are the testimonies of those who saw the Titanic sink regarding whether of not it broke apart before going under. Yet, no one questions that it sank.
Such is the nature of eyewitness testimony. Each sees (and reports) things that were particulary important to them.
This is actually a very powerful artifact of authenticity. Total uniformity smacks of collusion. -
Disillusioned JW
https://thechurchoftruth.org/the-bible-is-wrong-about-the-resurrection/ proves conclusively that the resurrection of Jesus Christ never took place!
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Disillusioned JW
The words "to fear God and keep his commandments" at Ecclesiastes 12:13 (which is what I think Sea Breeze means by "the writer when he reccommends to fear God and give him glory as early in life as possible") were added into the book of Ecclesiastes by someone other the writer of the bulk of the book! Critical biblical scholars have been teaching that for decades, but like the writers of the WT literature, Sea Breeze does not accept that scholarly understanding of the Bible.
What Sea Breeze does not realize and does not accept is that the author of the vast majority of the book of Ecclesiastes believed in a very philosophical materialistic view of life (though while also believing that God exists). Probably his book is the biblical book of all of the biblical books which is most appreciated by atheists. Likewise 1 Maccabees is the book of the Bible-Apocrypha which is the most historically accurate, and it is the the book of the Bible-Apocrypha which is written the most like secular books of history, like real history books.
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enoughisenough
Yep, Jesus resurrected himself and went to heaven and sits at HIS OWN RIGHT hand until he Subjects everything to HIMSELF that he HAD ALREADY subjected to HIMSELF ( 1 Cor 15:27,28 ) Makes perfect sense! (NOT!)
Yes, money meets a response in all things...but wisdom is life saving so wisdom trumps money ( Ecc 7:12 )
Revelations was set forth in signs. If you want to take it all literal, then can you hear Abel's blood crying?
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peacefulpete
BTW everyone knows the Trinity doctrine is not explicitly formulated in the NT writings. It's a red herring to assert as much. The trinity doctrine was formalized in the years immediately following, perhaps even before, the traditional close of the NT IN RESPONSE to the strongly indicative expressions in the NT and maturing oral tradition. There is no intellectually honest way to miss the explicit expressions of such a high Christology in the NT (Word is God, fullness of deity in bodily form, forgive sins, baptize in name of... etc) nor the repeated personification and equivalence of the HS with God. As JWs, we saw a conspiracy afoot because we saw the very next generation of Christians as apostate. In truth. as Riley mentioned, the foundational concepts of God having emanations in some respects acting independent from himself was a part of the Jewish tradition before the time Christians adopted it. There was no conspiracy, only some readers emphasizing some passages while other emphasized others, all convinced they were rightly interpreting. The writings themselves invited this. Christian obsession with mysteries and revelation reveled in it.
Further, a fundamental error in reading the varied writings of the Bible is to presume some singular belief about God or anything else. Despite the writings having been redacted and somewhat harmonized they still display a wide variety of convictions. It's hard to overstate the influence the WT had on our reading of the Bible.
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ThomasMore
This is the calibre of discussion that I expect on this forum. Many of the reasonings are excellent for consideration and I appreciate the spirited, yet civil way that they are presented.
May I add that I do believe in the resurrection, however, I think that WTC missed something critical in their reasoniing about the soul. I believe that their position on an immortal soul is Bible-based, yet they speak very little about the life force that animates the body.
If a person dies and everything deteriorates so that there is no connection to his previous existence, then resurrection can only be duplication. I do not believe that duplication is what any of us would hope for. Imagine that you are presented with a perfect duplicate of yourself and this person has all the same memories and the same biological characteristics. Would you be satisfied to die and let that duplicate version of you continue? Somehow I doubt that you would. There is no connection between you and that person.
The Bible says that the life force came from God and goes back to God. Perhaps this is the connection. It is not an immortal soul in the sense of what many Christians believe, but it is what makes you who you are. I have no inside information as to how this works, but if I am on the right track, the life force could reanimate a duplicate body (spirit or biological) and the connection is established - the person lives again.
If I am wrong, so be it. I am not dogmatic about any particular position. I am only positive that there is a distict difference between resurrection and clever duplication. If offered the latter, I would rather remain in a non-existent state.
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Sea Breeze
If a person dies and everything deteriorates so that there is no connection to his previous existence, then resurrection can only be duplication.
Exactly TM. The reason that JW's don't know what a resurrection is, is because they don't know what a death is.
The WT lies to its members and says that an immortal soul concept was stolen from Plato and Greek culture. Yet, in what may be the oldest book in the bible, we have a soul departing and a death occuring simutaneously:
Gen. 36: 18 - And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.The biblical definition of death is the separation of the soul, spirit, & body. A resurrection is just the opposite: A reintegration of the soul, spirit, & body.
Once a person has been conceived, they will be conscious forevermore. Jesus reccomends that we give some thought as to where we would like to spend eternity, either separated from our body (and God as well) or in OUR OWN BODY as part of God's family. It really is a very simple question. -
Jeffro
Sea Breeze:
So how do you expalin away tens of thousands of accounts of terminal lucidityand near death experiences to be able to arrive at your conclusion?
People who aren’t dead provide details of experiences when they were near death. 🤦♂️ Behaviour of neurotransmitters near death is fairly well understood. Not at all evidence of anything after death. How do you explain having any experience without a nervous system? 😂 Beliefs about consciousness independent of a functioning physical body are just made up nonsense based on ignorance and wishful thinking.