Mormon Malaise?

by NeonMadman 19 Replies latest jw friends

Reborn2002

I've been around Mormans all my life, have several morman friends, attended their church meetings, been in numerous discussions about their beliefs and visited many, many websites, both pro and anti-morman. What you have just said - "sheer hatred and contempt" and "viewed as subhuman animals that were beyond any form of redemption" is just NOT true and only perpetuates false information.

Nothing I said was untrue Double Edge.
Did you even look at the information I referenced?
If you note I said Mormon prophets years ago made those statements. I did not necessarily say that all current Mormons are racist. Although no Mormon teaching has currently recanted the doctrine initiated by Joseph Smith and others.
Outside of that, believe whatever you wish to believe, but I spoke no untruth.
Double Edge

Did you even look at the information I referenced?

Yes, I did.
If you note I said Mormon prophets years ago made those statements.
Noted, but equally note that the nowscape.com website you reference with 'bizarre' quotes from morman yesteryear 'prophets', those quotes were not uncommon for the ignorance of the general public at that time...and that's my point, you can find those quotes by almost any contemporary white christian leader..... society's belief in the superiority of the white man was indefensable... period! By today's standards, all their statements seem utterly ridiculous. Again, your statement - "viewed as subhuman animals that were beyond any form of redemption" just is not true. Just like the Quakers and a few other 'nothern' churches, Mormans were anti-slavery and accepted blacks as members (unlike Southern Baptist as well as other). In fact, their anti-slavery stance created a lot of problems for them... the following is from a history paper I found on the internet.... Missouri at that time was populated mostly by Southerners, who, because of the Missouri Compromise wanted to keep the state a slave state....
"On October 27, 1838, Missouri Governor Lilburn W. Boggs issued an executive order that condoned the killing of Mormons residing in Missouri. It stated that "The Mormons must be treated as enemies and must be exterminated or driven from the state, if necessary for the public good. Their outrages are beyond all description. If you can increase your force, you are authorized to do so, to any extent you may think necessary." The execution of this order led to violent conflict and the eventual migration of the Mormons from Missouri to Illinois, where they stayed until their exodus to Utah.
The Mormons had a tumultuous history in Missouri over the 7 years preceding the extermination order. In July of 1831, a group of about 60 Mormons settled in Independence, Jackson County, Missouri. ....... It was not simply the unorthodox religious beliefs of the Mormons that generated such violent conflict. ....The growing numbers of the Saints in Missouri gave them substantial political power. The local settlers also feared LDS anti-slavery attitudes ... Recognizing that slavery was a sensitive topic for their neighbors, the Mormons tried to avoid discussing slavery altogether. But several articles in Mormon newspapers revealed anti-slavery attitudes. The views represented in these articles led to the Mormon expulsion from Jackson County. The anti-slavery views would follow the Mormons through the rest of their time in Missouri."
Reborn2002

Noted, but equally note that the nowscape.com website you reference with 'bizarre' quotes from morman yesteryear 'prophets', those quotes were not uncommon for the ignorance of the general public at that time...and that's my point, you can find those quotes by almost any contemporary white christian leader.....

So you admit they did say that. Thanks.
Not uncommon for the ignorance of the general public at that time? I agree, but that does not excuse it. You say you can find those quotes by almost any contemporary white Christian leader? I also agree, but that goes to show the folly and fallacies of religion. The Mormons idolize Joseph Smith as an Apostle and Prophet, he stated those things about blacks.. nuff said.
Again, your statement - "viewed as subhuman animals that were beyond any form of redemption" just is not true.
Note what John Taylor, 3rd Prophet and President of the Mormon Church said about blacks:
(1877 - 1887) JOHN TAYLOR 3rd Prophet and President
"...after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation a upon a the earth as well as God;.. "
or how about this lovely quote?
(1901 - 1918) JOSEPH FIELDING SMITH 10th Prophet and President
"I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. "Darkies" are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church."
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race.
"... and they have been 'despised among all people.' This doctrine did not originate with President Brigham Young but was taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith ..."
or this one:
BRUCE R. McCONKIE of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles
The negroes are not equal with other races when the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..."
...As a result of his rebellion, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the negroes"
"Cain Ham, and the whole negro race have _ cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry."
That does not equate to subhuman and and cursed beyond redemption? Get real.
I think you are biased in your viewpoint because you have Mormon friends now.
After all, you said:
I've been around Mormans all my life, have several morman friends, attended their church meetings, been in numerous discussions about their beliefs and visited many, many websites, both pro and anti-morman. What you have just said - "sheer hatred and contempt" and "viewed as subhuman animals that were beyond any form of redemption" is just NOT true and only perpetuates false information.
You are entitled to believe whatever you wish. However you are not going to change my mind, and apparently I am not going to change yours. I never said that all current Mormons are racist. I was merely referencing quotation of the founder of the Mormon Church and Presidents to follow him.
The Mormons are very similar to JW's in mindset and doctrine. To excuse their former teachings is to be an apologist for them.
Stephanus

You won't get very far trying to push the "old light" on "Negroes" - they had fresh revelation in the 1970s about that. I used to use it to make fun of them using that old doctrine, though. I'd suggest to them that the reason they keep such thorough records on family trees etc. was to be able to prove that there was no black ancestry in their bloodline that would rob them of the Celestial Heaven!
Their stated reason is to be able to trace dead ancestors on whose behalf they can be baptised.
Reborn2002

Their stated reason is to be able to trace dead ancestors on whose behalf they can be baptised.

I forgot about that baptism & the deceased crap! LOL
Thanks for the laugh Stephanus.
Brummie

Neonmadman, I heard your tape from Blue Mountain, excellent!
Brummie
NeonMadman

Neonmadman, I heard your tape from Blue Mountain, excellent!
Thanks. I was nervous as a, errr, cat, since I hadn't spoken in public for several years. But so far, all the feedback I've gotten on it has been positive. (Everyone else probably just doesn't want to hurt my feelings ).
Double Edge

Reborn..
You are entitled to believe whatever you wish.
Thanks.
However you are not going to change my mind, and apparently I am not going to change yours.
I don't think anyone one this board EVER changes anyones mind, sometimes this board seems like a perpetual exercise in researching and typing skills.... but very enlightening
So you admit they did say that. Thanks.
How would I know if they said that... I only admit that I read those quotes on a website that you referenced, I assume they're correct.
I never said that all current Mormons are racist. I was merely referencing quotation of the founder of the Mormon Church and Presidents to follow him.
Well, I went to google and typed in LDS Church / Africans and found something else their founder said that contradicts his other statements:
THE LDS CHURCH AND AFRICANS
While Latter-day Saints are often accused by anti-mormons of restricting those of African descent from holding the priesthood until 1978, the truth is that LDS treatment of African-Americans and other minorities has been exceptionally egalitarian throughout the ages. Native Americans were befriended, fed, and clothed by the early saints at a time when Indians were looked upon as sub-human by establishment America. Similarly, Latter-day Prophets including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young advocated the full constitutional rights of all persons, regardless of color, from the earliest days of the Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith himself gave his prize stallion worth $500 -- an immense sum at the time -- to a colored man named Anthony in 1842 to buy the freedom of Anthony's son in slavery (Source: Mary Frost Adams in Young Women's Journal, p.538). As mayor of Nauvoo, Joseph Smith advocated: 'I have advised (slaveholders) to bring their slaves into a free country and set them free--educate them--and give them equal rights' (Compilation on the Negro in Mormonism, p.40). Joseph Smith taught that Negreos 'have souls and are subject to salvation' (History of the Church 5:217) in an age when Protestant churches across the United States were brimming with racism. Unlike other Christian groups in the United States, Latter-day Saints never participated in nor condoned the enslavement of the Negro at any time. These are not isolated quotations or incidents, but a consistent egalitarian policy followed by the LDS Church from its very origin. Numerous additional quotations and histories have been compiled by the Elijah Abel Society of Black Mormons
I remember Reverend Price (black preacher) once said that the pro-slavery white Christian churches got away with their views regarding blacks because they didn't believe they had souls (were they nuts?)
The Mormons are very similar to JW's in mindset and doctrine.
That may be your experience with both groups, but it's not mine.
To excuse their former teachings is to be an apologist for them.
I excuse nothing... why should I... what is history, is history, whichever way it falls, as long as it is told in it's entirety and correctly.... and as far as an "apologist" goes, that means defender... sure, I'll be a defender of anything or anyone if I know some facts are different than what has been discussed...so what.
Like most everyone on this board, we view things from our own experiences, which is fair -- instead of "mormans", we could insert "The Bible" or "Life after Death" or numerous other things and we would be going back and forth... like I said, it's a typing exercise... and like you said we're never going to change each others minds.
So.... what's for dinner?
DJ

Neon,
You are either nuts or a Christian.....lol.... I remember about 8-9 years ago, I had some of the lovely Mormon gents in my home and they still taught weird stuff about black people. I cannot remember exactly what is was, something about them being cursed and that is why they are black..what I do remember well is just sitting there and asking if they were joking and they were dead serious. We had along silence and I looked at my husband and he was just looking at me and it seemed like forever and I told them that was not right and bid them farewell. My favorite part was when they tried to make a house from deck of cards and told us about the 12 apostles and how they were similar..Well, my ceiling fan kept blowing the card house down and this kid just stayed very serious and keep putting it back together again and again and again........ You are in for some fun, Neon. I hope that you can help them. love, dj
Stephanus

Remember, Folks, there are some hold-out Mormon groups that don't recognise the mainstream church in SLC. They are loyal to Smith, his writings and his alone. They are the ones who live up in the hills with multiple wives and probably have very strong beliefs about dark-skinned people. Perhaps you ran into some of these, DJ?
Reborn, yep, you're right, that Joseph Smith must have been on some kind of a trip to come up with all that crazy shit!

Mormon Malaise?

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