BS Detector Sounds Alarm

by Amazing 16 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    First, Metatron, I am not seeking to detract from your post ... but the poster named "Hamas" has gone a little far, and I want to isolate his/her comments under the "truth" detector.

    REF. See post "Islam's Hour of Judgment" at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/52260/1.ashx

    The poster named "Hamas" made the quoted comments ... and the comments in between reflect my concerns and questions:

    Correct. The Islamic world has every reason to feel hard done to as they have felt the bite of history the most, out of all national groups.

    FALSE: Islam is NOT a national group, as though we could compare them to French, British, Chinese or German. Rather, Islam is a religion that is followed by over 1.2 billion people located in nearly every nation on earth, including the United States.

    Palestine: Britain, with the help of America, gave Palestine to the Jews who have occupied it for more than 50 years, years full of oppression, crime, destruction and killing. America supports these outrages.

    FALSE: Working with Palestinians for many years, including those who have little love for Jews, they have been very clear that the Palestinians welcomed Jewish migration from prior to WWII, during and following WWII. Palestine was not a separate state, but was under Jordanian control until Jordan abandoned the land and the Palestinians. As Jews increased in population they took control and created the State of Israel with the blessing of the UN. A separate state was promised to the Palestinians, but never delivered. Also, many Jewish settlements uprooted native Palestinians and property was wrongfully taken from them. Israel must address this and other wrongs to make peace with the Palestinians. REF. The Pro-Palestinian book, “The Diaspora” – an account of the plight of the Palestinians.

    Somalia:

    Nothing is stated here to address. So the poster named “Hamas” needs to be a little more specific.

    Chechnya: America supported Russian attrocities

    FALSE: Please provide some reasonable level of evidence for this claim. To my knowledge, the USA does not nor has it supported any Russian or Soviet atrocities. The USA acted as a buffer against Soviet expansionism for over 40 years post WWII. The USA did not go to war with the Soviet Union precisely because the Soviets equaled our military strength and nuclear power ... so they were contained under the “MAD” policy (Mutually Assured Destruction) ... and after the Soviet Union dissolved, the country experienced much civil unrest ... some regions were able to break free of Russia, and some were not ... the USA continued its policy of staying out of Russian affairs ... so, given we are damned if we get involved and damned if we do not ... we are call invaders when we do something pro-active, and we are called supporters of atrocities when we do nothing.

    Kashmir: America supports Indian oppression against Islam

    FALSE: Similar response as above, except that the USA has stayed out of Indian affairs. Kashmir has long been disputed before the USA became the only super-power.

    Lebanon

    Nothing is stated here to address. So the poster named “Hamas” needs to be a little more specific.

    The theft of oil due to military threats from America

    What is this about? Who was threatened, and what oil was involved. Please provide more specifics.

    American invasion and corruption of Arab lands

    FALSE: The USA stepped in to repel Saddam Hussein from Kuwait and a couple of cities inside the Saudi border near Kuwait. Iraq had designs to invade Saudi Arabia. The USA is now planning to leave. The so-called “Corruption” you speak of is the blatant racial and religious discrimination practiced by radical Islamists who consider all non-Islamic people to be heathen unclean infidels. These extremists are no better than the radical Bible-thumping Jehovah’s Witnesses who think they are the only clean people on earth.

    Prior to the second Gulf war, American sanctions were the cause of 1.5 million men women and children being starved to death.

    FALSE: The USA did not set up the sanction, but they were part of the UN resolutions. Today, the USA is trying to get the sanctions removed ... but France and Russia are want their continued imposition.

    Iraq : The unjust killing of civilians in order to destroy 'weapons of mass destruction', weapons that have never been found. The main reason America attacked Iraq was to prevent Saddam Hussain's continued support of Palestinian freedom in Israel by means of sales from oil.

    FALSE: prior to any such military police action against Iraq, the USA under the policies of President Bush has formally supported an independent Palestinian State. American support is via a peaceful evolution, and not through the suicide-homicide bomber method – which only serves to harden and polarize people.

    As for WMDs ... it is reasonable to conclude two things: First, it makes sense that Saddam Hussein would have his people continuously move such weapons and any material capability. The UN resolutions were not just after loaded and ready to use weapons ... but were after the basic capabilities, including facilities and materials. To date, the USA and UK and Iraqis themselves have found serrin gas, mobile chemical and biological laboratories as well as radioactive sites where raw plutonium was stored. They found banned long range missiles and long range drones. Also found is well documented connection to Al-Qaeda, terrorists training camps and manuals, and last but not least the French connection showing them aiding and abetting Hussein in hiding WMDs from UN inspectors ... it will not surprise me when such WMDs are found ... but if they are not, enough was found along with freedom for Iraqi people that the war is already a well justified action.

    Afghanistan : The criminal killings of innocent civilians, under the scapegoat of 9/11.

    FALSE: Afghanistan harbored Usama bin Laden and Al Qaeda militants who claimed responsibility for 9/11. The USA gave the Taliban ample time to turn these criminals over to American authority ... they chose unwisely ... they suffered the consequences. Yes, some civilians were accidentally killed ... this is a bad feature of any military action ... but no nation on earth save the UK and a few others would ever consider trying to be so surgically careful. Try checking the recent Philippine bombing of terrorists camps in that country ... compare their style to that of the USA. No one wants innocent civilians killed ... yet, sometimes it happens.

    White house guru's may want to irradiate Islam, we are in for a long war. America and Israel have attacked Arabs and supported the attacks for almost half a century, killing millions.

    FALSE: There is no one trying to eradicate Islam. The USA, UK and many other nations are defending their right to have a peaceful existence. Remember, it was radical Islam that first used military expansionism to spread Islam, starting with the seizure of the Jewish and Christian Holy land and then moving into Europe, when the Christians finally were forced to repel the Islamic invaders during the Crusades. Islam lost and they never got over it.

    Finally, the USA and Israel have not killed “millions” of Islamic people. You have not provided a single shred of evidence, and you cannot because none exist ... because it never happened.

    ISLAM and Palestinians have a case for sure. Certainly, Israel has not always been innocent. Like many Americans, I support an independent Palestinian State, as I support a separate Kurdish State. Our President supports a Palestinian State. It will happen. ... but in the interim, you would be far better served using facts, and discontinuing wild false allegations. Such statements discredit an otherwise good cause. Fundamental fairness and adherence to intellectual honesty demand that reasonable people deal with difficult challenges in reasonable ways.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Nice to read you again, Amazing.

    Hope things are going well for you.

    Cheers, Ozzie

  • mustang
    mustang

    Welcome back, Amazing

    Mustang

    PS Staying around for a while? Hope so.

  • Brummie
    Brummie
    The so-called “Corruption” you speak of is the blatant racial and religious discrimination practiced by radical Islamists who consider all non-Islamic people to be heathen unclean infidels

    Well said! The extremism in these radical islamists can never be defended. They would kill an American or "heathen" at the drop of a hat.

    There is no one trying to eradicate Islam. The USA, UK and many other nations are defending their right to have a peaceful existence..

    Eradicate! Typical cult persecution syndrome! In England Islam has more rights than Christianity.

    Good post Amazing, I think Hamas is just uninformed on this issue.

    Brummie

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Good comments in general, although quite why one geek who is either a decepticon, or an ignoramous needs so many different threads started, I don;t know.

    Basically the problem is cultural development. Large parts of the Islamic world are playing catch-up. Human rights in many Islamic countries are what they were in many European countries 150 years ago, in terms of sexual equality, judicprudence, etc.

    It's just not surprising that things are the way they are, but it's largely cultural development than something specific to do with Isalm.

    However, there is a specific area that causes problem that is a characteristic of Islam. Islam is more monolithic than Christianity, and it has not seen anything like the reformation the Christian church went under (Luther et. al.).

    At the risk of streaching a point, this is due to culture. Do the maths. Jesus died 33AD. Martin Luther born 1483AD; 1450 years. Muhammed died 632AD, today 2003AD; 1371 years.

    Now, review the history of the Christian church in the 15th Century.

    Is there any surprise that Islam is so divided? I am pretty sure within the next century there will be a similar reform movement in Islam. This will, as with the reform in Europe, open up the increasing secularisation of Islamic society.

    Just as Christianity was a bit of a mad dog in the middle ages, killing those that disagreed with it, carrying out religious wars, killing its own practitioners for infringements, supporting mysogyny and bigotry, so Isalm has its mad dog tendancies today. Just as Christianity retains some mad dog elements today, so to will Isalm retain similar elements after reform. But reform will come, there's too much sociological pressure on the religion for it to be able to resist reform

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Hello Again Amazing,

    Good to hear from you.

    Just as Christianity was a bit of a mad dog in the middle ages, killing those that disagreed with it, carrying out religious wars, killing its own practitioners for infringements, supporting mysogyny and bigotry, so Isalm has its mad dog tendancies today. Just as Christianity retains some mad dog elements today, so to will Isalm retain similar elements after reform. But reform will come, there's too much sociological pressure on the religion for it to be able to resist reform

    Interesting point Abbadon, reform may come to Islam, but I see it as a far slower process than the reforms that have come to Christianity over the past thousand years. In fact the dogmas of the religion have hardly changed at all since their inception, yet the modern world has given it dangerous teeth with which to bite its enemies.

    Islam began its life as a violent and conquering religion. It was due to an express edict within its doctrine that still exists today, that is 'convert or die’, that saw the massacre of thousands of Christians in the Eastern reaches. These massacres outraged European Christians when they heard about them and ignited the Crusades, which were initially fought for noble reasons and quickly descended into a rationalized loot.

    Islam has never been a religion of peace and has evolved very little since its inception, unlike Christianity which has proved to be altogether more malleable by social evolution.

    The fact is that world conversion *by any means* is part of the dogma of Islam yesterday and today and for the foreseeable future. It is uncompromising in this dogma, and arguably this is part of the backbone that holds it together. That is why even more moderate sounding practitioners of the faith twitch uncomfortably when they are questioned as to Islam’s view of ‘heathens’, the attitude of a good Muslim toward them and their eventual fate, which are all rather unerving to the Western ears.

    I have little time for any religion but there is a danger in trying to understand history in snapshots frozen in time rather than looking at an overall picture. Islam is greatly responsible for many of the ill’s that it has had to contend with today, and its inflexibility as a religious dogma seems to doom it to continually repeating the same mistakes of history. Christianity is far more flexible in its dogma and subsequently has learned to survive more successfully in a modern world.

    HS

  • Shakita
    Shakita

    Great post, Amazing. Religion brings out the best in people, huh?

    Glad to see you back to posting, I enjoy your interesting reads.

    Mrs. Shakita

  • Shutterbug
    Shutterbug

    Hamas, Hamas, wherefore art thou Hamas. You need to ride in on your Islamic horse and defend youself and Islam. Bug

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    Good posts all. We should expect a lot of "scapegoating" by the Islamic world for things which are largely the result of their own culture. It is so much easier for the Mullahs to point their finger at the West as the source of all their problems. Just as Hitler scapegoated the Jews, the muslims will see the west as responsible for all the turmoil and poor economic conditions. Can you imagine what their word would be like if they had no oil? I agree that the Palestinians were treated most unfairly by the Jews as the nation state of Israel was being created. It is a Jewish myth, for the most part, that the Palestinians left Israel of their own accord. Many were "invited" to leave at the point of a gun.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Good points hilary. Islam is more coherent, having less internal contradictions, than has christianity. That means less pressure points that could rupture, whereas we know that the bible is full of conflicting statements. So, i agree that islam is less likely to undergo reformation.

    An interesting article on how sufism strengthens islam can be read at http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:n32q_xH_4ugJ:freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/chechnya_sufi.html++%22Chechnya+Sufi+Secret+Societies+%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

    or freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/ chechnya_sufi.html when enough bandwidth becomes available to that site. It's w regard to russian attempts to iradicate islam in chechnya.

    SS

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit