Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 74 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    So, you think these Shepards were living/sleeping out in the fields during wintertime?

    Of course. The average daily highs and lows in Jerusalem on December 25th is 55 F high and 43 F low. I live at the same latitude as Jerusalem in Texas and sheep are outside year around, expecially around Christmas when the weather is so nice.

    Remember, Jerusalem isn't New York, Totonto, or Moscow.

    Why is it important to you for you to need a direct command "in the way that Paul states to keep observing his death, until he arrives" regarding Christmas?

    There is no direct command in the bible to observe wedding anniversaries in the bible. Yet, Jehovah's Witnesses celebrate wedding anniversaries while at the same time they
    hypocritically condemn others for doing the same thing regarding God's birthday?

    You would agree that is pretty twisted right?

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Duran

    The argument against celebrating Jesus' birth, based on shepherds not being in the fields during winter and the lack of a command for observing His birth, fails on several grounds. The claim that shepherds could not have been in the fields during December misunderstands the historical and agricultural context of first-century Judea. While it’s true that colder months might see less grazing, sheep were often kept outside year-round in milder climates like Bethlehem's, especially near Passover season to ensure lambs for sacrifices. Luke 2:8 describes the shepherds watching their flocks at night, which aligns with practices for protecting sheep from predators or thieves. Weather patterns in Israel do not definitively rule out December grazing.

    While 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 commands remembrance of Jesus' death through the Eucharist, this does not imply that observing His birth is wrong. The Bible contains no prohibition against celebrating Christ's incarnation. Luke 2:10-14 depicts the angels proclaiming Jesus’ birth as “good news of great joy for all people,” signaling that it is worthy of celebration. Matthew 2:11 shows the Magi honoring Christ with gifts. While not a formal command, their actions set a precedent for recognizing the significance of His birth.

    Paul’s teaching in Romans 14:5-6 permits Christians to esteem certain days as special, provided it is done to honor God. Celebrating Christ’s birth falls under this principle of Christian liberty, focusing on gratitude for God’s incarnation.

    The celebration of Christmas highlights the incarnation of Christ—God becoming man (John 1:14)—a foundational event in salvation history. The event’s theological importance is inseparable from His death and resurrection. Commemorating His birth complements, rather than diminishes, the observance of His death.

    So the shepherds' presence in the fields does not exclude December as a possibility, and while Scripture does not explicitly command celebrating Jesus’ birth, it does provide theological and historical precedent for doing so. Christians are free to honor His incarnation as a vital part of God’s redemptive plan.

  • Duran
    Duran
    Why is it important to you for you to need a direct command "in the way that Paul states to keep observing his death, until he arrives" regarding Christmas?

    LOL!!!!!!

    First off, what you are saying, and I am asking has nothing to do with JWs, nor wedding anniversaries. And for the record, I do not celebrate christmas or wedding anniversaries.

    And I take it that you are unable to cite ANY Scripturally support to observe Jesus' birth like there is in regard to his death.

    The reason it would be important to have such a direct command is because if it was something that Jesus wanted his followers to do then he would have made it clear to them to do so the way he did in regard to his death.

    You said:

    surely you have heard of Christmas? It's the greatest holiday the world has ever known

    It is 'the people of the world' that came up with 'christmas', not Jesus. If that is the case, then are those that celebrate 'christmas' following Jesus or 'the world'?

    [ 13 But now I am coming to you, and I am saying these things in the world, so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves.14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 15 “I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.]

    [15 Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him;]

    [19 We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.]

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Duran

    The argument that a direct command from Jesus is necessary to justify celebrating His birth overlooks key aspects of Christian worship and the nature of tradition. While the Bible does not explicitly command the celebration of Christ's birth, neither does it forbid it. In Romans 14:5-6, Paul allows believers to esteem certain days as special to honor God. Christmas, like other traditions, can be celebrated as a way to glorify God and reflect on the significance of the Incarnation.

    The Bible commands the remembrance of Jesus' death because of its direct role in salvation (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). However, this does not diminish the theological importance of His birth. The Incarnation (John 1:14; Luke 2:10-14) is central to the Gospel, as it represents God taking on human nature to redeem humanity. Celebrating Christmas highlights this aspect of salvation history.

    The association of Christmas with "the world" ignores its distinctly Christian origins. Early Christians chose December 25 to celebrate Jesus' birth as an opportunity to proclaim Christ to a pagan society. The fact that non-Christians also celebrate does not invalidate the Christian significance of the holiday. Like Paul in Athens (Acts 17:22-34), Christians can use cultural moments to point to Christ.

    Jesus never condemned traditions outright but opposed those that undermined God’s commandments (Mark 7:8). Traditions like Christmas can enrich Christian faith when they focus on Christ. Celebrating Jesus' birth fosters gratitude and joy for God’s redemptive work.

    So the absence of a direct biblical command to celebrate Jesus' birth does not make it unbiblical. Christians are free to commemorate the Incarnation in ways that honor God and deepen their faith. The celebration of Christmas, far from being "worldly," is a testimony to Christ’s light entering the darkness of the world (John 8:12).

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    Though my mother was a Conservative Jew, my father was a Roman Catholic, and I had a formal Catholic education growing up.

    "Christmas" is not the "birthday" of Jesus of Nazareth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses. They are idiots.

    In fact, it is only in English-speaking countries (mostly in the United States and the UK) where the word "Christmas" is employed due to the original Puritan hatred for the it's connection with Roman Catholicism. The title Christmas is derived from the Old English title Cristes Maesse which means “The Mass of Christ.” The actual name of the feast on the liturgical calendar is "The Nativity of our Lord." It is an 8-day solemnity (not a 24-hour celebration) that begins on sundown of December 24th (not the 25th) that celebrates the miracle of the Incarnation, of God taking on flesh to save humanity--but not the actual date of the birth of Jesus, son of Joseph and Mary.

    The word in "Noel" in the carol "The First Noel" means "Nativity" in French because they do not call it "Christmas" in France. That is the word "Nativity" in French. The famous Spanish carol, "Feliz Navidad," employs the word in Spanish for "Nativity" as well, "Navidad" because they also do not use the word "Christmas."

    Since the feast of the Epiphany follows so closely on January 6th, and there are several feast days for saints in-between, the celebrating generally continues until then, making for "12 Day of Christmas," so to speak, as the famous Christmas carol goes. Like the Jewish feasts that are celebrated for 8 days, the Catholic Church observes its liturgical solemnities for 8 days as well.

    There are NO birthdays on the Christian litugical calendar, by the way, not even one for Jesus. All the days that celebrate the saints that are on the liturgical calendar are the day of their deaths, not their births. The only day marked on the liturgical calendar that Christians celebrate with certainty regarding Jesus is the day of his death. We know it as "Good Friday."

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    Post Script:

    The Feast of the Epiphany marks not only Christ's manifestation to the Gentiles (via the visit by the Magi) but reinforces the manifestation of Emmanuel, or "God with Us"--thus concluding the "Divine Mystery" celebrated 12 days prior.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @KalebOutWest

    Indeed, Christmas is NOT the "birthday" of Jesus, but the celebration of his birth, let's make this distinction. The celebration of his birth does not have to coincide with the actual day of his birth, this was the case of the Queen Elizabeth II:

    https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/why-did-queen-have-two-birthdays

    As we do not know the exact date of Christ’s birth, the date of December 25 for Christmas may have been arbitrary. The Church could have chosen another date on which to celebrate the birth of Christ. One reason December 25 may have been deemed suitable is its proximity to the winter solstice. After that date the days start to become longer, and thus it is at the beginning of a season of light entering the world (cf. John 1:5). The summer solstice—after which the days start to get shorter—falls near June 24, on which the Church celebrates the birth of John the Baptist, who declared of Christ, “He must increase, but I must decrease” (John 3:30).

    In response to the claim that Christmas was originally a pagan holiday, this is a misconception popularized by American puritan Protestants who were hostile to Catholicism and fabricated the "Sol Invictus" myth. Ancient sources do not support this claim. Unfortunately, contemporary Jesuits, in their defense of the faith, aprioristically argued that this instead proved the legitimacy of Christianity, which - as is well documented - baptized the "seeds of the word" found in paganism. However, this was not the case here. Pagan emperors, following the example of Kim Jong-il and Stalin, attempted to appropriate the already existing Christian festival... unsuccessfully.

    The date of Jesus' birth was not "decided upon," but celebrated in Rome as early as the 3rd century, well before the artificially established festival of "Sol Invictus." (This is why the introduction of "Sol Invictus" was unsuccessful, even among pagans.)

    The birth date of Mithras is also often cited. This is a fallacy propagated by the "Zeitgeist" movement; original sources should be consulted to understand when and how Mithras was celebrated. This is akin to claiming expertise in wilderness survival and bushcraft based solely on watching the Rambo movies! Additionally, the Hellenized cult of Mithras is later than Christianity. Also, it is a common sense truth in religious studies that formal similarities may either represent completely different meanings or have no genetic relationship between two religions. Furthermore, it is demonstrable that, partly due to chronological reasons, homologous religious phenomena were incorporated into the Mithras cult in competition with Christianity, making it contrived and unviable. It was about as widespread as any modern occult sect.

    As for the actual date of Jesus' birth, Gustav Teres attempted to determine this using astronomical methods in his book "The Bible and Astronomy" (2000). The date of celebration is related to the theory of "integral age." According to tradition, prophets (messengers of God) die on the day of their conception or birth. Thus, Jesus, who according to Christian belief is the prototype of the prophets, was crucified on Nisan 14, which was identified with the Greek Artemision 14. In Egypt, this was dated to April 6, 30 AD, and in the West to March 25, 33 AD. (Note: in these two years, the Jewish Passover coincided with the Sabbath.) This led to the erroneous dating of Jesus' birth. Based on the mystique of 33 years, whereas he might have been around 40 years old (even the image on the Shroud of Turin depicts such a man), it is believed he was born around 7 BC, corresponding to the Hellenic acme (prime of life).

    Therefore, Christmas did not precisely coincide with the solstice (only Stalin's falsified birthday did), but was determined by adding nine months to the date of his death. This resulted in December 25 in Rome and January 6 in Alexandria, as both places chose different years (30 and 33, respectively) when Jewish Passover and Nisan 14 aligned.

    Christian teachings are not fundamentally affected by the exact date of Jesus' birth or the date of the celebration. The pagan festival that can be demonstrably proven is the wheat consecration procession. Today, its significance is mostly as a tourist attraction. However, the inclusive Catholic perspective views paganism not as inherently "ab ovo" evil but as preserving fragments of the original revelation.

    Since the Watchtower literature and JW identity rely heavily on Hislop's theory, it is worthwhile to outline this question.

    "Paul taught that holiness cannot be mixed with impurity."

    The verses cited in this regard only serve as a legitimate argument against syncretism or false irenicism, but not against inculturation.

    This double standard is also interesting, since while Christmas etc. JWs refers to the "pagan origin", while in other cases they admitted that it does not matter what the origin of a pagan is, pagan or not pagan, but:

    "In such matters, what generally is influential is whether a practice is now linked to false religion.​" (w92 9/1 pp. 30-31)
    "Admittedly, true Christians today are not preoccupied with the roots and possible ancient religious connections of every practice or custom..." (w98 10/15 pp. 30-31)
    ... but of some, they are :-)
    "Even if it were a fact that pagans first used wedding rings, would that rule such out for Christians? Not necessarily. Many of today’s articles of clothing and aspects of life originated in pagan lands. The present time divisions of hours, minutes and seconds are based on an early Babylonian system. Yet, there is no objection to a Christian’s using these time divisions, for one’s doing so does not involve carrying on false religious practices. [...]
    Really, the question is not so much whether wedding rings were first used by pagans but whether they were originally used as part of false religious practices and still retain such religious significance." (w72 1/15 pp. 63-64)
    "Still, all kinds of objects, designs, and practices have, at some time or place, been given a false interpretation or have been linked with unscriptural teachings. Trees have been worshiped, the heart shape has been viewed as sacred, and incense has been used in pagan ceremonies. Does this mean that a Christian must never use incense, have trees in any decoration, or wear heart-shaped jewelry? That is not a valid conclusion.
    A genuine Christian should consider: Would following a custom indicate to others that I have adopted unscriptural beliefs or practices? The time period and location could influence the answer. A custom (or design) might have had a false religious meaning millenniums ago or might have such today in a distant land. But without going into time-consuming investigation, ask yourself: ‘What is the common view where I live?’​—Compare 1 Corinthians 10:25-29." (w91 10/15 pp. 30-31)

    So why can't the SAME standard be used to judge ALL customs?

    By the way, this "pagan orign stuff is bad" ideology ironically tempted Catholicism as well, and it didn't exactly work in the Church's favor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Rites_controversy

    In short: When the Jesuits and the Franciscans began their mission in China, they tried to use the beliefs of the Chinese with the purpose of an apologetic bridge, for example they translated the word "God" as Shàngdì.

    The Dominicans said that this was wrong, since Shàngdì was already the name of the supreme deity in the old Chinese pantheon, so it was of "pagan origin", so a term for God that was not yet "contaminated" should be used. They defended themselves by saying that this is essentially the same as by linking it with the "unknown god" as described in Biblical passage of Acts 17:23–31. The Dominicans complained to the Pope, citing that such translation may associate the Christian God to Chinese polytheism.

    Unfortunately, the Pope at the time listened to them, and the result was the banning of Christian missions by the emperor. Without this stupid "pagan influence" fallacy, there is a good chance that China would be a Christian country today, and history would be very different.

    In the 20th century, the Pope revoked this ban, but Chinese Catholics still call God Tiānzhǔ.

    The point is: Inculturation is a legitimate missionary tool, as long as it does not result in an essential compromise in its content of the Christian religion.

    By the way, as far as I know, the very first historical source that claims that Christmas falls on December 25th because they wanted to override Sol Invictus is from the 12th century and is attributed to Dionysius bar Salibi. So there is not a single contemporary source that would have claimed something similar, the first speculation about it is almost a thousand years later. In the twelfth century, the Syriac theologian Dionysius Bar-Salibi wrote that December 25 was established in the West as the feast of Christ’s Nativity to coincide with the pagan Roman celebration of the Invincible Sun. He wrote:

    "It was a custom of the Pagans to celebrate on the same 25 December the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and revelries the Christians also took part. Accordingly when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnised on that day."

    This concept became popular in the West particularly in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. More recent scholarship has shown that Christmas had been observed for years before Emperor Aurelian established the pagan festival in AD 274.

    More recent studies have shown that many of the holiday’s modern trappings do reflect "pagan customs" borrowed much later, as Christianity expanded into northern and western Europe. The Christmas tree, for example, has been linked with late medieval druidic practices. This has only encouraged modern audiences to assume that the date, too, must be pagan.

    https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/how-december-25-became-christmas/

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    aqwsed:

    I don't know why you addressed your post to me.

    I stopped caring about this subject the moment I wrote my postscript.

    I neither bothered to read what you wrote nor am coming back to read anything for some time. My vacation begins now. Airplane mode begins in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...

  • moomanchu
    moomanchu

    Is there any date that would be acceptable to memorialize the day Jesus was born? If not, why not? Why did the angels, shepherds and wise men celebrate Jesus's birthday?

  • Duran
    Duran

    Rejoicing, being happy over the birth of a child is fine, normal, and expected. That happens on the actual day of the child's birth and then maybe for some days afterward from friends and family that could not be there on the day of birth.

    The reason you have to ask 'is there any date that would be acceptable to memorialize the day Jesus was born' is because you don't know the date from the Bible. If Jesus wanted his birth memorialize year after year, he would have made the date know and made it known to do so. But he didn't do either. Any attempt to pick a date and to claim to celebrate the anniversary of his birth on that date is completely from people in the world wanting to do so. And even with that claim they do so with Santa (Satan), etc.

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