Almost half of UK congregations are financially in the red

by truthseeker 41 Replies latest members private

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  St George of England

  Please remember that the accounts submitted to the Charity Commission are the product of the Accounts Servant and Congregation Secretary.

  In my experience I have never met either that I would entrust with submitting my accounts to HMRC!

  George
  
• 

  snugglebunny

  My home congregation of Bognor Regis. This is an elderly congregation that has been dwindling for sometime though in recent years immigrants from Europe have bolstered the numbers a bit.

  I once worked with the PO of Bognor in Fareham Hampshire. I understand he was later DF'd for naughty stuff. I don't want to malign him unfairly in case I'm mistaken, his initials were R.A.
  
  
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  truthseeker

  I know the assistant PO was df'd. Initials are DM. He was df'd in the late 1960s and then came back around 2000. I sat next to him at the back as I was working the sound system then.
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  slimboyfat

  truthseeker the deficits of the last couple of years are probably a lot to do with congregations sending their surplus funds to the branch.

  A statistic I would be more interested in seeing is the overall level of donations to congregations and whether this is increasing or decreasing in response to the new financial arrangement.

  You asked about rumours of congregations closing. I heard something about Kilbirnie and Stevenston combining. Strange thing is that the congregation now meets in Stevenston, but calls itself Kilbirnie. I don't know why, except possibly that Stevenston was in the news for all the wrong reasons. Plus I seem to recall that there was an Adrossan congregation as some point, which doesn't seem to exist any more. Plus I think there were three congregation in Perth at one time, but only two now. And I think there was talk about Kemnay joining with Bucksburn. Others would know much better than me.
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  darkspilver

  You may want to review the letter below.

  Just as a note, I understand from that letter that the congregation's 'Worldwide Work' contributions from the actual 'WW Box' are not included in the congregation's charity accounts.

  • The money collected via the 'Worldwide Work Box', although put into the congregation's bank account, goes direct to Bethel and is therefore not counted for the purposes of the Congregation's individual Charity accounts.
  • The money the Congregation sends to Bethel for the WW through the congregation's monthly resolution, comes out of the 'Congregation Contribution Box' and is therefore included in the the Congregation's individual Charity accounts.
    

  Letter - May 29, 2017 TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS IN ENGLAND AND WALES - Re: Charity Commission Annual Return Guidance
  

  https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/6uimuj/may_29_2017_to_all_bodies_of_elders_in_england/
  
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  truthseeker

  darkspilver,

  Thank you, that's very interesting, I will be looking into this further.

  Slim, I agree with you on this.

  I am seeing a lot of defunct congregations during the years 2015-2017 where the closed reason status is "Transfer of funds."

  Thanks for the info on the above mentioned congregations I will be looking into this.
  
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  The Fall Guy

  @ slimboyfat - according to the cult's information, Stevenston congregation no longer exists.

  Kilbirnie congregation is on its own......situated in Stevenston! (that makes sense. TM)

  https://apps.jw.org/ui/E/meeting-search.html#/weekly-meetings/search/E/Ayrshire,%20Stevenston,%20United%20Kingdom/55.641817,-4.76041/
  
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  steve2

  Appreciate your work and intention truthseeker.

  Sometimes, though, presenting partial results because full results aren’t available can be confusing for readers like me.

  My understanding is that on occasion, funds are “ cooked” so that “deficits” are the leftovers once all required “siphoning” of funds to another source ( e.g., branch office) have occurred.

  These do not necessarily reflect a dire picture - after all it is to meet requirements of having charity status for tax exemption purposes. Similar to the self-employed not wanting to needlessly inflate their earnings.
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  Lostandfound

  My view is your in the Red when you owe more than you have coming in, if Congregations spent more than their income in a period, the balance of funds on hand reduces, but only goes in to the Red when no balance is held on hand or more corrctly when the balance on hand is a deficit, owing more for services and bills due, loans etc , than you can pay. No certain but in UK Charity Law trading in a deficit position is not altogether legal and the trustees (elders) are personally responsible for clearing all debts, loans etc. Elders never really trained on the significant fiducary duties of Trustees, who have to operate apart from their assignment as Elders. Trustees can be made bankrupt to discharge illegal charity activity and some have been. Kids Company ex dirctors/trustees facing court action over trading whilst insolvent. If you have no funds, knowledge of any certainty on incoming funds, then as a Trustee you become liable for all debts due. In first instance the standing resolution of the congregation to donate to WT becomes void , trustees cannot move money from an insolvent charity apart from paying due debts and donations are not due legal debts. Some elders as trustees should be very afraid, very afraid, I have informed the Charity Commission re the standind ‘voluntary’ domation to WT for their comments on its legality.
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  truthseeker

  Thanks Steve, appreciate that.

  Fall Guy, some congregations have on the charity website a box for "other names" and I have seen a few that were significantly different from what they're called now.

  It's a huge task getting all this info. I've automated it as much as possible but some things have to be done manually. It will be in Excel if anyone wants the finished product.