I stumped my dub mom
So last night me and my mother had a long 2 hour conversation on all sorts of stuff.....
mainly......truth, faith, the bible and apostacy
I asked her if the bible could be used without any other book. She of coarse said yes. I asked her why didnt she just use it instead of all the other literature. She said that while the bible interprets itself that people need the guidance of other books to show how it interprets itself. Fine I said...if that is the case then what about all the people that lived before the time of the JW's literature...say about early 1800's....are all those people wrong and going to die at armageddon? they didnt have the literature you do in order to interpret the bible and neither did her biblical examples....
she was stumped...she couldn't answer it.....
but wait there is more....I asked her if truth changed and she said no but sometimes our perception is mistaken so what we originally believe to be the truth could be found out later as false. I said that was fair. Then she said she wasnt looking for for truth because to her she has found it..so I gave her an example.
example: person wears green glasses that helps them see better but gives everything a green hue. they say because of this that the sun is green and they know that is true because thats what they see. we know that if they would take off the green glasses that they would find out that the sun is really yellow. but what if the person says well these glasses have served me and help me see why should I take them off because you say so. the moral of the story was just because you seem to have found "truth" you should still examine things if given another idea on what could be true. (my mom didnt have much to say on that example either)
so then we talked about how truth was truth no matter where the source was. I said if a person you despised had truth and proof to back it up would you not want the truth just because of who relayed the information (we got stuck on "messengers" but thats another story)? she said she didnt know. hey thats a start. so then I asked to read her something (I had the source unknown to her...so of coarse she was thinking it could be apostate material)
what I quoted her actually came from the June 22, 2000 Awake:
Some people insult those who disagree with them by questioning character or motives instead of focusing on the facts. Name-calling slaps a negative, easy-to-remember label onto a person, a group, or an idea. The name-caller hopes that the label will stick. If people reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative label instead of weighing the evidence for themselves, the name-callers strategy has worked.
So I read that and asked if she agreed with it. She really wanted to know who wrote it but I said that wasnt imprtant. I then asked if something was truth then it could stand up to opposition. She said yes. So I asked again if she agreed with what I wrote. She told me she would have to think about it and asked for a copy. I wrote it on a peice of paper for her to look over and read. then I said that I would make a deal with her. I would read any book she wantd me to read if she would do the same for me. I told her that it would not be a vulgar book and would not be filled with sexual stuff and that everything would be proven and documented in it. She asked if it would be written by someone she would consider an apostate. I said perhaps but then asked about the paragraph I read again. She said she may take me up on my offer after she has thought about it. Then it was late so we went to bed on that note.
Basically if she agrees with that paragraph she has no reason not to read CoC (which is what I am going to have her read if my offer is taken).......but if she doesnt agree with it then I get the pleasure of telling and showing her it came from an Awake. Either way I think it will have some bearing.
Wish me luck......
This will prove to be interesting....keep us updated...
Urrrrrm, is your, err, mom coming with you to Manchester?
Dansk of the mom's appreciation class!
Awesome, Hope it works out for you. You may not convert her, but at least she will understand your viewpoint better.
Spice - you did SO well! That is really great. I'm going to try these arguments with my mum next time she starts on how the "truth" is the best way of life etc.
I especially like your tactic on using the Awake quote. It sounds like she might agree to read CoC. I hope she does. My mother never would I am afraid. She is the type of dub who doesn't care to investigate things.
green glasses illustration is very good.
My mom would say this "the light gets brighter and brighter". That seems to be her mantra these days.
I hope that your Mom takes that big step to read COC. Reading that book was the straw that broke the camel's back for my husband and I. We were already questioning things before that, so we had an open mind when reading it. After reading that book and a few others, we knew that we could never go back the the org.
I wish you good luck with your Mom...... let me tell you, if Mr. Shakita who was a very loyal and faithful JW(unlike I) could break free from the mind control of the org., there is hope for anyone!
You know, that cult saying of "the light getting brighter and brighter"....seems like the light is so bright that it blinds them from seeing at all!
Wow, nice work. Prying open a closed mind for the first time is extremely hard. Everything gets easier after that.
yeah I totally forgot to mention the part about yoga....
after we were talking about one of the issues my mother said that she would have to meditate on it. I said I thought meditation was bad. she said no its not. I said then why is toga bad even if they suggest to meditate. my mother went on to say some programmed response...so I gave her this little bit of info...
1. yoga is primarily for breathing, stretching etc
2. yoga can be done with or without meditation, that part is completely optional
my mother brought up some health article (in a non WT magazine she pointed out) that she read that gave pagan background. I told her thats fine but do you know how many types of yoga is out there. she said no. I told her that while I was not an expert I have attended yoga classes and read and studied up on it. I told her that yoga has many types and its primary focus is a form of exercise. she again brought up pagan background. thats when I said well what about wedding rings....or did you know that the majority of things have a pagan background....
well it left her thinking ....and we went on to something else after that.
thanks for the replies everyone...I will keep you updated on this.
dansk---umm....no she isnt going with me....I plan on having fun non-dub style
Those arguments are soo great!!! I will have to use them on my mom next time we speak. Actually I think she is kinda scared of me right now. She is coming to grips with her loss of power in the face of my loss of belief. It will be a while before we talk again. If you don't mind, I will be copying this to have at my fingertips for our future conversation.