This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe (page 25)

cofty

Are you saying this physical universe is ruled or guided by direct intelligent design?

No of course not. I am saying the exact opposite. If the god of christianity existed the world would look very different.

I think the physical universe is ruled by impersonal natural laws. Only these natural laws were designed metaphysically outside the physical universe.

According to christians these natural laws were designed by god.

And these natural laws probably are necessary for the best world to harbor free-willed agents.

A world where tectonic plates didn't get stuck for hundreds of years and then kill hundreds of thousands as they release would be a better one. Free-will has nothing to do with it. If you affirm that god acts in the world you have no way out of this dilemma. If you don't affirm that god acts in the world then you are not a christian.

John_Mann

According to christians these natural laws were designed by god.

Outside the physical universe in a metaphysical way.

Free-will has nothing to do with it.

Free-will needs natural laws.

If you affirm that god acts in the world you have no way out of this dilemma. If you don't affirm that god acts in the world then you are not a christian.

God acts in the world continually in a metaphysical way. Every soul is created by him at conception. Sometimes there's a special act against natural laws that's called a miracle. But a miracle primarily has the purpose of something about salvation of souls.

Why God does nothing about natural evil? Actually he already did.

There's a Buddhist saying that if you want all the ways padded you just need to pad your feet.

God has padded us with immortality. Your consciousness, the higher levels of your intellect and will are not destroyed by a tsunami.

A tsunami can only give you some few minutes of pain and agony but can't damage your immortal soul. But your soul can be subject to an eternal dreadful state.

EdenOne

But your soul can be subject to an eternal dreadful state..

Why would a good of love and justice subject anyone to an eternity of punishment for wrongful deeds that were practiced during a few decades in the material life? Such god would lack basic decency.

deegee

John_Mann,

It begs to be answered why such an Almighty and loving god would value his reputation more than the endless suffering of the creatures he supposedly caused to exist.

"This is a JW concept (sovereignty)."

This is NOT a JW concept. It is a Bible teaching:

Hebrews (9:26):
"Christ appeared "once at the end of the ages" to "put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."

The matter resolves itself into this: Christ either paid the "debt" or he did not. If he did pay it, that should settle the account, and we ought not to be the bothered with it any further.

As far as I can see sin, evil still exists in the world. It was not "put away" by Jesus' sacrifice as the scripture claims.

The objective of the death of Christ has not been attained. That object was to make a complete satisfaction for all sin, and to remove such sin from the world. But these objects have not been attained, for mankind has still to secure its own exemption from the supposed effects of sin; and, further, sin still surrounds us. If Christ, by his death, paid the debt that is said to have been incurred through sin entering into the world, why should man be required to make a second payment?

As to the boasted victories of the cross, where are they? We have still misery, pain, folly, ignorance, crime, and injustice in the world. The erection of the cross has not frightened the miscreant nor appalled the tyrant. The voice from the height of Calvary has not destroyed error nor cemented truth; neither has the death of Christ produced that condition of society in which it is impossible for man to be depraved and poor. If, as we are told, the Savior has come, it may be fairly asked, "Whence comes salvation?"

John_Mann

Why would a good of love and justice subject anyone to an eternity of punishment for wrongful deeds that were practiced during a few decades in the material life? Such god would lack basic decency.

There's only two options: God or nihil.

The highest level of your will, the center of your intentions, will be fixed at the time of your death. There's no free-will after death.

The Christian eternity is not an infinite amount of time but the absence of physical time.

The pursue of nihil is Hell.

EdenOne

The highest level of your will, the center of your intentions, will be fixed at the time of your death. The Christian eternity is not an infinite amount of time but the absence of physical time. The pursue of nihil is Hell.

Those are concepts that wholly absent from the early christian writings, including the gospels, even flat out contradicting them. Your philosophical speculation is as good as anyone else's. And it doesn't meet the challenge anyway: Since you claim that god creates every soul at the moment of conception, then the destiny of each soul rests under his wing. Including abandoning such soul to a supposed hell of nihlism. Again, why would a god of love and justice do that? After all, that soul didn't ask god to come to existence.

deegee

John_Mann,

Continuing.......

"This is a JW concept (sovereignty)."

Further, God ruined Job's life just to prove that he is God. Wasn't that supposed to have settled the issue? Shouldn't Job’s successful completion of the test have put the issue to rest?
Wasn't the point of Job's suffering to silence Satan?

Yet Satan was subsequently cast down to the earth (Revelation 12) and allowed to continue wreaking havoc in people's lives, and to become the "god of this system of things" (1 John 5:19).

So the issue hasn't been settled then, Job's suffering was all for nothing, his suffering was in vain.

What's more, Job didn't even know why he suffered, he didn't even know that God was playing a game of chess with his life.

This makes God the engineer behind the suffering and evil in the world.

All this time I thought God loved us and wanted the best for us instead God prefers to carry on a pissing contest with Satan at mankind's expense. How many more lives must be ruined before God ends his pissing contest with Satan?

Again, God is ruining lives just to prove that he is God just like he did with Job.

John_Mann

Those are concepts that wholly absent from the early christian writings, including the gospels.Your philosophical speculation is as good as anyone else's.

The Catholic faith it's not based only in early Christian writings.

And it doesn't meet the challenge anyway: Since you claim that god creates every soul at the moment of conception, then the destiny of each soul rests under his wing.

No. Every soul has free-will.

Including abandoning such soul to a supposed hell of nihlism.

It's a personal free choice. The first requirement is to accept the existence of God. This requires the same faith applied to the axioms of the scientific method. Is it that hard?

Again, why would a god of love and justice do that? After all, that soul didn't ask god to come to existence.

This is a ridiculous teenager whining. The human nature is designed to pursue perfection (you need to exist to do that). You need a great amount of will to fight against this default feature of human nature.

punkofnice

What a weird thread this has turned out to be. The more I hear from 'believers' the more absurd their beliefs sound.

John_Mann

Everyone is a believer.

Believing in nihil or oblivion is absurd IMHO.

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

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