This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty 496 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • deegee
  • John_Mann
    What was the source of your vision then?


    To whom/what did God give permission in order for you to receive your vision?


    I see that you agree that there is no evidence outside of the Bible for Jesus' resurrection.

    Historical consensus about Jesus outside the Bible is only about his baptism and crucifixion.

  • deegee


    "There's no official position from Catholic Church about why Jesus was killed. It's a complete mystery."

    !!!!FTW The Catholic Church does not know why Jesus died?

    The Bible is very clear about why Jesus died.

    The purpose of Jesus' death was to remove the effects of Adamic sin which we as his descendants although not the ones who committed Adam's sin, are the ones who are being penalized for it when the effects of Adamic sin were thrown on us without our asking:

    Matthew 1:21: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Matthew 20:28: "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

    Mark 15:45: "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

    Matthew 26:28: "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

    Mark 14:24: "And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many."

    Luke 22:20: "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."

    John 1:29: "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

    John 3:16-17: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. "

    John 10:14-15: "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

    John 14:6: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

    1 John 1:6-8: "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

    If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

    Romans 4:24-25: "but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."

    1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

    Romans 5:6-11:
    "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
    For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciledto him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

    Romans 5:12-19:
    Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.
    To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
    But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
    Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
    Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

    2 Corinthians 5:14-15: "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."

    2 Corinthians 5:18-21: "And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

    Galatians 3:14: "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."

    1 Timothy 2:3-6: "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

    1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." This is a favour.

    Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

    Colossians 2:13-19:
    And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
    So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

    Ephesians 2:14-16:
    For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross,thereby putting to death the enmity.

    Romans 7:1-6:
    "Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.
    Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

    Hebrews 9:11-17:
    " But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
    For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives."

    Hebrews 9:26-28: "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

    Hebrews 10:10: "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

    1 Peter 2:24: "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

    1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    Romans 8:3, 32a, 34:
    "For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.
    He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all........Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us."

  • deegee


    "As a human he was doomed to die."

    Jesus was a perfect human, he couldn't die from natural causes.

    "There's about 4 views in CC about the crucifixion of Christ."

    So why has God left the CC floundering? Why doesn't God speak to the CC and tell them which is the correct view? After all, he gave you a vision.

    "Baptism removes the guilty of this sin because the death of Christ."

    Hebrews (9:26):
    "Christ appeared "once at the end of the ages" to "put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."

    along with the other scriptures which I quoted above, say nothing about baptism removing the guilty of this sin (original sin) because the death of Christ.

    There is NO MENTION of baptism in any of these scriptures. These scriptures make no connection between baptism and Jesus' death. It is you who have made this connection and read this into the scriptures regarding the purpose of Jesus' death.

  • cofty
    I worship the God who cares for physical suffering - John_Mann

    But that flatly contradicts what you have been saying throughout this thread. Your excuse for why god allows millions to suffer and die in natural disasters is that physical suffering is of no consequence and that the only thing that really matters is the eternal soul.

    If your god actually does care about physical suffering why does he cause it?

    The god of Jesus created the world complete with moving and sticking tectonic plates. We know that continents have been on the move for millions of years. The omniscient god of Jesus knew about the growing pressures under the Indian Ocean during the centuries prior to the disaster. On the morning of the event he observed the Indo-Australian break free and begin to rebound. The omnipotent god of Jesus could have effortlessly dampened the rebound - he chose not to. He watched the wave of less than a metre rise to the surface. The god of Jesus who calmed the storm on Galilee could have quelled the wave and nobody would have known anything about it. No free will would have been infringed in any way. He failed to do so.

    The god of Jesus knew that the wave would kill a quarter of a million people and cause suffering and harm millions more. He did nothing.

    The god of Jesus did not permit the suffering of the Asian Tsunami - he caused it. He murdered them wilfully, deliberately and with malice aforethought. He made a world that was perfectly designed to kill its inhabitants and passively observed the consequences.

  • deegee


    What was the source of your vision then?


    Did you receive this vision from God himself?
    "Idk. Probably not."

    You are contradicting yourself.

  • deegee


    ".....the Resurrection, the sign of Jonah." "Jesus itself called his resurrection this way."

    BTW, the book of Jonah was fiction. Most of the book of Jonah was composed or plagiarized from material drawn from Exodus, 1Kings, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Psalms and other books:

    "Historical consensus about Jesus outside the Bible is only about his baptism and crucifixion."

    Please provide proof of this historical consensus - there are legends surrounding Jesus' crucifixion.

  • deegee


    Your explanations regarding the loss of free will by the beings in heaven are interesting to say the least.

    Where did you get these explanations from? I do not see your explanations the Bible.

  • John_Mann
    !!!FTW The Catholic Church does not know why Jesus died?
    The Bible is very clear about why Jesus died.

    English is not my first language, but in the languages I know there's a difference between "killed" and "died".

    And I think there's a clear difference between "source" and "personal delivery".

  • EdenOne

    Regarding the "sign of Jonah", it's worth mentioning that the only two gospels that mention Jesus as saying this are Luke and Matthew, who draw from a common source, "Q" and from Mark. Coincidently or not, Mark, the oldest gospel who is mute about a story of resurrection of Jesus also omits this passage that was added to support the tale that Jesus prophetically foretold his own resurrection. And so does John, who offers a different view of Jesus, a "son of man" who had a pre-human existence as the "logos" and returned to such existence after the physical death of the man Jesus - a vision that's not too far off from gnostic christianity.

    It is most probable that the real historical Jesus never said anything about the "sign of Jonah". As it happens in other parts of Matthew and Luke, the author of the gospel attempts to find in the old testament passages that seem to validate the role of Jesus as the one who fulfilled the prophetic utterances about a future jewish messiah (as is the case of the unwarranted and very clumsy use of Isaiah 7:14 to apply it to the story of the 'virginal conception' of Jesus).

    It so happens that the fictional Jonah stayed for 3 days in the sheol (the whale's belly), but Jesus stayed on the tomb for parts of three days, not 3 full days. Besides, Jonah didn't die, and, as far as Pauline christology is concerned, it was necessary that Jesus died in order to pay for our sins.

    So, you have the whole "sign of Jonah" very messed up.

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