This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty 496 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

John_Mann

With respect, and I don't wish to appear nasty, but -
Why is it all about you? What makes you so special above others? - punkofnice
It's very surprising to me you all sticked to my vision axiom when I said my acceptance of theism is due to three things.
I was expecting the vision thing to be discarded as rubbish and the discussion would follow refutation about the St. Anselm's ontological argument and the Pascal's wager.
But why me? I suppose you are talking about my paranormal experience.
Well, we x-JW's are a very specific group of people. A lot of things in our lives are just understandable to other x-JW's. We have a metaphysical bond.
In a sense we are a nation. Maybe the purpose was to bring a new way of exposition of Christianity to x-JW's.
I like this idea. :)
punkofnice

John_mann - It's very surprising to me you all sticked to my vision axiom when I said my acceptance of theism is due to three things.
It's because it sounds unusual to the point of not being believable.
Well, we x-JW's are a very specific group of people. A lot of things in our lives are just understandable to other x-JW's. We have a metaphysical bond.
But if this is true, then why haven't the majority of us had this...what sounds like..an hallucination? Why would you be picked out as special?
You see, this is why it sounds like you are ragging us, deluding yourself or in need of professional help. I admit that sounds harsh, but it's for your own good.
John_Mann

The only reason why Jesus was baptized by John is that Jesus was initially a disciple of John, who later on started his own sect of radical, messianic judaism.
Yes.
That's the simple truth that the early christian writers attempted to obfuscate when they wrote the gospels. Because that would undermine the belief that Jesus had been God's anointed envoy.
Yes.
Of course, that's the explanation that the later followers of chistianity had to come up with to say that the baptism of Jesus was superior to that of John. This happened in a time when the disciples of John who didn't buy into Jesus' sect were still raising controversy with the Jesus followers, as it is vaguely documented in Acts. The fact that the author of Acts even mentioned it (only to then tell the story that those had finally converted to christianity) denotes that this controversy was still well alive still many decades after Jesus' death and was a theological problem for the early Christian congregation. That is why (not a coincidence!) only Luke and Matthew tell the story that John Baptist wanted to be sure that Jesus was the messiah (Matthew 11:3; Luke 7:18, 19), to give the impression that even John Baptist accepted Jesus as the messiah.
Yes.
This story is implausible and probably never took place, and that's why Mark (the earliest gospel) and John don't mention it.
Actually is the opposite. Read about criterion of embarrassment.
Still, if baptism is an essential sacrament for salvation, why weren't the apostles baptized by Jesus?
The CC teaches 4 forms of baptism: water (usual), blood (martyrdom) , desire (like the crucified thief and people subject to invincible ignorance) and fire (pentecost).
In all of these forms the Holy Spirit is received.
The tradition says the Apostles were baptized by John too and later baptized by fire.
Every Apostle (less John) were martyrs.
John_Mann

It's because it sounds unusual to the point of not being believable.
Yes I know. The well informed Athenians had the same reaction in the Areopagus. I had the same reaction too. Christianity is really a very original and intriguing thing. Sadly we were being exposed to several caricatures of Christianity.
"You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean."- Acts 17:20
But if this is true, then why haven't the majority of us had this...what sounds like..an hallucination? Why would you be picked out as special?
I'm no more special than you.
You see, this is why it sounds like you are ragging us, deluding yourself or in need of professional help. I admit that sounds harsh, but it's for your own good.
Thanks for the advice. I like psychology.
deegee

John_Mann,
"The sacrifice of Christ it's only effective to those who believe."
So the condemnation of death, suffering due to Adam's sin, fell on all of Adam's offspring AUTOMATICALLY for a transgression committed by someone else.
Yet, Jesus' ransom is not applied the same way - it is NOT AUTOMATIC, yet beneficiaries have to believe in Jesus and his ransom sacrifice, exercise faith in Jesus and his ransom sacrifice and work at proving worthy of "grace".
This is unfai and immoral:Since the condemnation was AUTOMATIC and not the fault of Adam's descendants, the ransom should likewise be AUTOMATIC. Christianity unfairly stacks the odds against the innocent offspring of Adam who inherited his sin through no fault of their own.
It is a fundamentally immoral worldview where the innocent are blamed and punished for the sins of their ancestors.
There is no justice system in the world which requires innocent children to pay the penalty for a crime committed by their parents.
deegee

John_Mann,
"I didn't had a vision that can be directly applied to these situations."
I imagine everybody's "vision" is unique. The point I am making is that a "vision" is a form of communication from God. It is claimed that communication from God can take the form of a vision, God speaking directly to a person, God inserting thoughts into a person's mind etc.
So my questions were essentially asking: why has God communicated with you but yet he has not communicated with the persons in the instances which I mentioned?
deegee

John_Mann,
"It's a personal axiom (I'd experienced a paranormal event)."
So, can you specifically tell when it is the unconscious dynamics of your mind at work versus when God is communicating with you?
Can you make a clear distinction between these two things? If so, how exactly are you able to make this distinction?
_______
THE UNCONSCIOUS DYNAMICS OF THE HUMAN MIND:
Information enters our brains minutely, hourly, daily at the conscious and unconscious levels. Some of the unconscious information never makes its way to the conscious mind for active processing but remains in our subconscious - hypnosis has proven to be an effective method in accessing/uncovering information buried in a person's subconscious.
There is always background activity taking place in our brains when we are awake and asleep and there is also a constant interplay between the conscious and subconscious mind - some information from the unconscious mind makes its way to the conscious mind for active processing and vice versa - thoughts/issues/concerns from the conscious mind can get pushed out of consciousness into the unconscious mind.
Our minds are never perfectly still. There is always subtle processing going on in which we can't consciously identify the thoughts in terms of clear words or clear images. There are rapid and fleeting associations taking place in the subconscious mind.
Subtle processing or preconscious or subconscious processing gives rise to conscious self-talking and imaging, however, as I have already stated, not all unconscious information makes its way to the conscious mind for active processing some remains in our subconscious and can be accessed/uncovered by methods like hypnosis.
Thoughts, impressions, visions, images, voices, words, etc. can also be released from our subconscious when we engage in certain intense practices like intense/deep/strong prayer, meditation, fasting etc. which can alter a person's state of consciousness to the point where, the person descends to deeper levels of his/her consciousness and releases thoughts, impressions, visions, images, voices, words etc. from the deep mind.
This self-induced altered state of consciousness involves a transition from the left brain to the right brain wherein the rational left brain is suppressed and quieted and the perceptive faculties of the intuitive right brain are awakened and the person transcends to the unknown, inner world of their subconscious mind.
This opens the way to the unlocking of a deep level of consciousness where psychic and extrasensory perception can be done and so some persons may become psychic or clairvoyant being able to forsee the future when in fact it is thoughts, impressions, images, visions, voices, words etc emerging from the deep, intuitive levels of the right brain as their own subconscious mind begins to "speak" to them.
New insights well up directly from the fluid matrix of the subconscious and the subtle processing taking place there, without having to be first processed at the conscious level. Some persons become psychotic or hallucinatory or some persons become both psychic/clairvoyant and psychotic/hallucinatory.
ALTERNATIVELY,
for some persons, it does not take intense activities like hypnosis, intense/deep/strong prayer, meditation, fasting etc. to induce an altered state of consciousness to unleash thoughts, images, visions, voices from subconscious.
Unleashing thoughts, images, visions, voices from the subconscious can happen SPONTANEOUSLY as well.
There is a percentage of the population for which unleashing thoughts, images, visions, voices from the subconscious happens SPONTANEOUSLY and there is a percentage of the population for which unleashing thoughts, images, visions, voices from the subconscious does not happen spontaneously but occurs when they engage in intense activities that induce an altered state of consciousness.
http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-15-83-02-143.pdf
John_Mann

So the condemnation of death, suffering due to Adam's sin, fell on all of Adam's offspring AUTOMATICALLY for a transgression committed by someone else.
Just not by someone else but by the first human couple to receive a soul. And everybody who possess a soul is a descendant of them. Even though it's not considered a personal sin but an inherited sin through the very human nature. The worse consequence of this original sin is the eternal perdition of the soul.
Yet, Jesus' ransom is not applied the same way - it is NOT AUTOMATIC, yet beneficiaries have to believe in Jesus and his ransom sacrifice, exercise faith in Jesus and his ransom sacrifice and work at proving worthy of "grace".
Exactly.
This is not fair. Since the condemnation was AUTOMATIC and not the fault of Adam's descendants, the ransom should likewise be AUTOMATIC. Christianity unfairly stacks the odds against the innocent offspring of Adam who inherited his sin through no fault of their own.
It is a fundamentally immoral worldview where the innocent are blamed and punished for the sins of their ancestors.
There is no justice system in the world which requires innocent children to pay the penalty for a crime committed by their parents.
Well this is your opinion.
My opinion is I can't escape from all consequences of the acts (physical and metaphysical) done by my ancestors (all of them).
But my immediate ancestors (my parents) baptized me when I was a baby in an unpainful and inexpensive way. I think the procedure of baptism is very fair compared to the possibility to get an eternal reward.
The Rebel

Just my personal observation, but belivers seem " NOT" to have had a big dissapontment in their belief system, be it spiritually, or mentally. Personally I think this is what needs to happen in order for "belivers " Not" to believe?"
Therefore Cofty's list of why he doesn't believe is as beneficial to belivers, as Cofty pulling his trousers down. And the reason I say that is that it's true. Thinking ruthless logic to a believer will change their thinking is naive.
But you never know, anything can happen in life...my life on the ministry taught me teaching fantasy and a "paradise on earth" was an easier sale than " we live and simply die". The reason was I only had return calls with those interested in "my" message.
Reality checks are not always welcome.
John_Mann

@deegee
OMG! Please consider my paranormal experience as an ordinary delusion.
Nothing what I'm talking about depends on this personal experience.

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

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