This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty 496 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • deegee
    deegee

    John_Mann,

    As I have stated before, in invoking "spiritual" or "metaphysical", we know no more than when we started; we have not answered the question, merely moved it beyond the realm of the answerable. This only muddies the waters, adding additional levels of complexity and mystery without actually explaining anything.

    In essence, these claims are a smokescreen to protect unsatisfactory assertions from further questioning.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    Not quite sure I understand this statement but are you saying that a person's intuition is their soul?
    Last time I checked, intuition is a function of the material brain:
    Meditation and relaxation exercises quiet your rational left brain and awaken the perceptive faculties of your intuitive right brain. This opens the way to the unlocking of a deep level of consciousness where psychic and extrasensory perception can be done.

    The intuition is not the soul but it's a function of it.

    There's correlation in mind/brain of course. But correlation doesn't mean causation.

    Even though the spiritual soul is not the mind but a part of it. Our mind is the collective of three souls and mechanisms of the brain.

    My position is the consciousness and the higher perceptions in humans are functions of the spiritual soul. The performance of this soul depends on the "hardware" just like a driver can run faster and better with a better car. But the same driver cannot perform the same way with a crappy car. If you change the car it doesn't mean you affect the driver in anyway just give him a different medium.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    There is no mention of an immaterial soul in this definition so obviously there is no known mechanism by which an immaterial soul could possibly alter the state of the body or affect the brain which are both made of matter.

    Positive thinking creates neuroplasticity. How can you detect which neurons are making positive thinking?

    How can you detect in my brain if I'm thinking about a banana or an apple?

    The mind works in some ways that are totally unrelated to the brain. You can't say what I'm thinking just looking to a top notch brain scanner.

    So you have an undetectable event (positive thinking) changing the material structure of the brain (neuroplasticity).



  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    So when a spirit medium claims to have contacted the dead during a séance, whom/what has the medium contacted?

    BS.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    As I have stated before, in invoking "spiritual" or "metaphysical", we know no more than when we started; we have not answered the question, merely moved it beyond the realm of the answerable. This only muddies the waters, adding additional levels of complexity and mystery without actually explaining anything.
    In essence, these claims are a smokescreen to protect unsatisfactory assertions from further questioning.

    The scientific method is based on metaphysical principles too. So what?

    In fact you are just opposing my metaphysical assertions with another metaphysical assertions. Can you see that?

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    I have thunk....very deeply.....about these matters and what you say really comes over as bonkers.

    OK.

    So did you have found meaning in nihilism (oblivion)?

  • Saethydd
    Saethydd

    The very scientific method is supposed to be only applied to the physical world, just like an ordinary tool (hammer or screwdriver). I don't know if you're aware of that but you're applying a strange metaphysical interpretation upon science. You say science is the only way to get knowledge and scientific method is applicable to metaphysics. Nowhere in science there are such statements.

    Well, I'm saying that science is the only way to get knowledge that is objective. (won't change depending on who seeks the knowledge) Thus making the scientific method, the only way, that I know of, for an individual to determine the accuracy of a claim. Additionally, I would argue your assertion that the scientific method can only be applied to the physical world is flawed. After all the scientific method is simply a question to which someone applies systematic observation, measurement, and experimentation and then formulates, tests, and modifies a hypothesis to that question. In principle, the scientific method can be applied to study things that aren't directly perceivable, energy for example. I will grant that the scientific method is better with some subjects than it is with other subjects, and there are some questions it can't answer, but anything that has an impact on the physical world can be measured, and directly or indirectly observed.

    In fact you are following a philosophical system called positivism. Idk if you're aware of that or if you don't know what the scientific method is or what metaphysics is. Probably you're just a blind follower of positivism (lately it's spreading like a plague).

    I'm aware what positivism is, and I gladly support it because the "mission statement" of logical positivism is to prevent the confusion caused by unclear language and unverifiable claims, both of which are ideals I agree with completely.

    The scientific method is a philosophical system and metaphysics is also. Everything I said is subject to philosophical study since the dawn of man. And the test of it is time. Nature itself "hates" waste. If something is not true it will never last too much time. My view is standing for thousands years throughout many civilizations. Your view is just a little shadow in the stream of time. No matter how hard you try you simply can't change this fact.

    You are right, metaphysics is older than the scientific method, however, the scientific method in its relatively brief period of existence has provided a large body of useful, objective, and verifiable information. Making it, in my opinion, the more valuable "tool" for attaining knowledge on which to base my actions and beliefs. In the same way that a jet is superior for traveling long distances, as opposed to a unicycle.

    Giving a more direct answer to your question I get my information through philosophical inquiry and through metaphysical revelation (both public and private) brought by non human beings (human souls can't do that without special permission) and through the test of time/history.

    So nothing that anyone else could double-check to make sure you aren't just delusional or suffering from a severe confirmation bias? Yeah, that seems like a great way to acquire knowledge that you can trust.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    Well, I'm saying that science is the only way to get knowledge that is objective. (won't change depending on who seeks the knowledge)

    What you mean by objective?

    Thus making the scientific method, the only way, that I know of, for an individual to determine the accuracy of a claim.

    A claim? Like any claim? Or just "objective" claims?

    You clearly are confusing the restrict scientific method with general philosophy.

    Philosophy is the only human activity that can verify any claim.

    In fact the scientific method is philosophy applied to the physical world.

    Additionally, I would argue your assertion that the scientific method can only be applied to the physical world is flawed.

    So you don't understand the scientific method. The scientific method is only applicable to the physical world.


    After all the scientific method is simply a question to which someone applies systematic observation, measurement, and experimentation and then formulates, tests, and modifies a hypothesis to that question.

    Right.


    In principle, the scientific method can be applied to study things that aren't directly perceivable, energy for example.

    Energy is physical.

    I will grant that the scientific method is better with some subjects than it is with other subjects, and there are some questions it can't answer,

    There are subjects that the scientific method is not applicable at all.

    but anything that has an impact on the physical world can be measured, and directly or indirectly observed.

    This is positivism. How do you scientifically measure the potential of an idea before it's execution? Even dreams have an impact on the physical world.

    The scientific method says nothing about it being a universal tool. Giving the universal application to it is a positivist idea (which is a metaphysical assertion BTW).

    The scientific method only was possible inside the Abrahamic tradition (especially Christianity, thank you William of Ockham). Actually the scientific method was born entirely inside the Abrahamic tradition, you can't change this fact. Because it was the only system that didn't consider the physical world as equal to God (like Chaos in Greek mythology). Any other philosophical system considered the physical world being a god, or a limb of a god, etc. In this worldview you don't study the physical world but you worship it just like every pagan really did.

  • deegee
    deegee

    John_Mann,

    So when a spirit medium claims to have contacted the dead during a séance, whom/what has the medium contacted?
    "BS."

    It seems that this is our ultimate proof that the soul does not exist if no one has been able to contact the dead who are presumed to be still conscious.

    Pity we aren't able to contact the "conscious" dead to hear about what the afterlife is like and about their conversations with God.

    Interestingly, meditation is one of the means used by spiritistic mediums (channels) to self-induce an altered state of consciousness or trance-like state when engaging in a séance.

    While in the trance/altered state of consciousness, the medium channels information from the "spirits of the dead" whom the medium has contacted, who speak through the medium, or via automatic writing (hypergraphia) in which the medium, churns out meticulously detailed, elaborate (and usually incomprehensible) text in a native or different language.

    Slate writing, artwork, glossolalia (speaking in tongues) etc, are also means by which the "spirits of the dead" communicate with the medium.

    It is puzzling that the mechanism of meditation is used by spiritistic mediums (channels) to self-induce an altered state of consciousness or trance-like state when engaging in a séance to contact the dead - which you deny - AND YET this same mechanism of meditation can also be used to quiet our rational left brain and awaken the perceptive faculties of our intuitive right brain which opens the way to the unlocking of a deep level of consciousness where psychic and extrasensory perception can be done.

    "intuition is not the soul but it's a function of it."

    So, it seems the spirit medium is not actually contacting the dead since you deny this, but, unknown to them, they are in fact accessing their intuition, a function of their soul, when they engage in meditation as a precursor to a séance?

  • deegee
    deegee

    John_Mann,

    "So did you have found meaning in nihilism (oblivion)?"

    It seems to me that you believe that life can only have meaning if you can "live on" after to death.

    It seems to me that you are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that you are no more at death.

    Perhaps this defeat of self-importance is what led man to invent the concept of the immortality of the soul. Our narcissistic feeling of self-importance makes it difficult for us to accept that we become nothing at death so we have found a way to immortalize and perpetuate ourselves.

    And so in comes reproduction.........reproduction is nature's solution to death - we live on, immortalize and perpetuate ourselves by having children.