Who Are the "Other Sheep" and Jesus "Brothers" ?

by Sea Breeze 40 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Halcon

  Why doesn't Watchtower claim that Lazurus wasn't in his real body when he was resurrected? Why don't they go way out of their way to say his body was turned into gases too? Why only Jesus?

  Assuming it did, not sure why it would make a difference. The understanding is still that Jesus died and remained dead for 3 days. I've never been confused about the JW teaching regarding this.

  It's a little extreme to claim that anyone who doesn't understand the scholarly way of Romans 10:9 is condemned to hell.
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  NotFormer

  I remember reading "anti-cult" literature in the 70s (maybe 80s - probably Dave Hunt) that quoted Russell, at the end of the nineteenth century, saying something along the lines of the dissolved into gases thing. Also that he seemed to deny a physical resurrection - that what the disciples saw was some kind of spirit creature with a fake body created and destroyed at each appearance (memory is foggy; quote might not be exact).

  But since then I've learned to discount anything uttered in the past by even the founder* (not that I consider Russell the founder of the JWs: IMO, that distinction belongs to Rutherford). True authority lies in whatever is written in the latest Watchtower**. And nothing against a physical resurrection has been assumed by the WT since those ravings of Russell. They've never repudiated that view, AFAIK, but they've never ratified it either (again, AFAIK).

  *In another thread I've discussed his 1914 date. That matters, IMO, because it is still foundational to JW teachings today.***

  ** I'm curious to see what is in the August Watchtower. Not that that is what actually matters. It's what they may have had to change that matters.

  *** New light notwithstanding 😳
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  Sea Breeze

  Extreme? I don’t want to fool around and find out:

  Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, …On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me,

  Imagine getting married and you agree to sign the marriage license with someone besides your fiancé because you are in a hurry. Then you tell your friends who object that they are being too technical, we’ll just straighten it all out later.

  That is contemptable.

  I believe a person must make a deal with the right Jesus, not one that the enemy has conjured up.
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  Halcon

  I believe a person must make a deal with the right Jesus, not one that the enemy has conjured up.

  The scripture you posted, "not everyone who calls me Lord....", was not referring to a 'wrong' Jesus.

  In fact, once again Christ was referring to the state of the person's heart and attitude towards him.

  The demonic spirits Jesus refuted knew exactly who he was, witnessed his death and resurrection and even went so far as to acknowledge that he was Lord when they stated they knew who he was. By your explanation, they shouldn't be in hell and yet they are.
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  Sea Breeze

  The scripture you posted, "not everyone who calls me Lord....", was not referring to a 'wrong' Jesus.

  It seems to be a perfect fit to me.

  It’s not talking about demons here. It is referring to people who thought they had some sort of relationship with Jesus.
  

  Sadly they had to be told that Jesus NEVER knew them…. Not even once. In other words, they are deceived.
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  Halcon

  Sadly they had to be told that Jesus NEVER knew them…. Not even once. In other words, they are deceived.

  Imagine wholeheartedly striving to excercise faith in Jesus...but because somebody else deceived you over how Jesus technically became resurrected...you are 'sadly' still going to hell...
• 

  Sea Breeze

  When I got saved, I was not fully on board with the deity of Jesus, Trinity etc. I knew enough though that I had to make an appeal to Jesus, not Jehovah or anyone else. I relied on the scripture where Jesus said that all authority had been given him in heaven and earth. I thought about it and realized that all, meant ALL.

  So, when I cried out to Jesus to save me, I believed I was dealing with the highest authority that there was. I didn't reject the deity of Jesus or the Trinity doctrine, I just shelved it for a later time.
  
  My appeal was accepted, I got born again, filled with the Holy Sprit.... the whole nine yards. Within a few months the Spirit dealt with me on this issue and I knew that Jesus was somehow God as well as the son of a peasant girl in a far-flung nowheresville province in the Roman empire. Later, I got more understanding when I realized the scriptures taught that I myself was a tri-partite being.

  How much of the right Jesus (or the right resurrection) is enough for Salvation? The Lord will make that determination. I offer my testimony as an example of how I got saved. But, I am confident that if I had not abandoned the idea that Jesus was really Michael the Archangel, I would not have been able to pray to him. Of that I'm sure. Furthermore, I never really bought into the idea that Jesus wasn't in the same body after he was resurrected, even as a JW.

  But the 30,000 ft. view is that the enemy is definitely targeting the minimal belief requirements God has stated that is necessary for Salvation. That realization alone should be enough to warrant further reconsideration of JW assumptions (Watchtower definitions).

  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Tim. 2: 15 KJV
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  Halcon

  How much of the right Jesus (or the right resurrection) is enough for Salvation? The Lord will make that determination.

  This makes perfect sense. The Lord will decide.

  I offer my testimony as an example of how I got saved. But, I am confident that if I had not abandoned the idea that Jesus was really Michael the Archangel, I would not have been able to pray to him. Of that I'm sure. Furthermore, I never really bought into the idea that Jesus wasn't in the same body after he was resurrected, even as a JW.

  I am not convinced that Jesus is the same as Michael myself. Refer to Jesus as Michael in a JW setting and everyone begins to squirm. However, it truly doesn't really matter to me if he is or isn't. It's the same team, so to speak and doesn't change anything about his resurrection.

  Some things are simply above me, and if God wanted to he would shed more light on them for us.

  But the 30,000 ft. view is that the enemy is definitely targeting the minimal belief requirements God has stated that is necessary for Salvation. That realization alone should be enough to warrant further reconsideration of JW assumptions (Watchtower definitions)

  The minimal belief is precisely what we read in Romans.

  The enemy doesn't waste time with things like what we've discussed. That's just man getting in his own way. The enemy focuses on trapping us with greed, hate, violence, self idolatry as you said, spiritism, worshipping it itself. Things like these are the real dangers.
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  Jeffro

  Sea Breeze:

  Watchtower plays lots of games with definitions.

  It does. But Christianity has been playing this game for centuries, and the Watch Tower Society is just another denomination with its own esoteric interpretations.

  First of all, Jesus said that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel

  Actually, we have no evidence that Jesus said that at all. We have no evidence that Jesus actually said anything attributed to him in the Bible. What we have is documents written by people who had access to older works, enabling them to write stories that ‘fulfilled’ supposed ‘prophecies’, usually out of context and sometimes in reference to passages that were never intended as ‘prophecy’ at all.

  It’s remarkably unimpressive that someone could read what Jeremiah and Ezekiel wrote, and then write something based on that.
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  Jeffro

  Sea Breeze:

  My appeal was accepted, I got born again, filled with the Holy Sprit.... the whole nine yards.

  It is entirely impossible to confirm that any part of that is true.