faith and illusion

by teejay 44 Replies latest jw friends

Reborn2002

Many many years ago, one summer day my older brother and I were out doing yard work. There was a line of ants climbing up and down a wall into their nest somewhere inside our house. I can’t remember his exact comment from 30 years ago, but as he washed down the wall hosing off 30 or 40 ants going to and from their nest he said something like, “they don’t see us or could ever understand who or what we are, yet we impact how they live.”

I don’t remember exactly why he said it, but the episode might very well explain our ignorance of who/what god is: He exists, he’s far advanced beyond us, and he doesn’t care any more for us than we care for a line of 30 or 40 ants climbing into a hole in a wall.
I particularly liked this analogy teejay. It was definitely a thought provoking comment to ponder.
SixofNine

Everything in the future is imagination.

Rather huge oversimplification I'd say. Some people "imagine" the future based on data and reality in the present (and often do quite well "predicting" the future), and some people simply imagine based on their feelings.
Which is along about the same lines that belief vs. non-belief falls, it seems to me, with the exception that there are far fewer people willing to apply logic, reality, and data to the question of God as compared to the question of "the future". I suppose this for two reasons, a) we've been conditioned from childhood to equate questioning god's existance with insulting god, and b) one can predict the future on an ongoing basis, with lots of feedback, while the god question will remain unanswered and never have any real solid feedback, so at some point most people just stop trying to approach it on the basis of reality.
teejay

I want to call a truce.

Good enough for me, Dedalus. Consider our feud at an end.
At some point in the eons past, there was no material universe, thus no motion of any kind between celestial bodies, since there weren't any. Consequently, time is a phenomena that extends indefinitely in only one direction, the future. And I believe that it is not one, long, straightaway drive but rather a gigantic ellipse that ultimately returns to itself. -- Frank

Amazing... thinking about this stuff.
I partly agree with you, Frank. The Big Bang is thought to be the starting point, but what happened ten minutes (or 100 yrs) before then? Surely time was ticking then, too. And, was god there? Or not?
Everything in the future is imagination.

Rather huge oversimplification I'd say. Some people "imagine" the future based on data and reality in the present (and often do quite well "predicting" the future), and some people simply imagine based on their feelings.

I agree, Six.
But the point is that the future is not real. The present being what it is, time’s forward movement will result in future likely events, but those events are unknown and can’t be known with certainty in the present. They exist as possibilities (or, probabilities).
That’s why I liked Zechariah’s comparisons of space, time, and god. To a degree it’s possible to begin to understand space and time because they can be experienced in some way. “Understanding” god is a bit different. As Zechariah said, if a being like god exists it must certainly be as different a life form from us as we are from ants. So, trying to understand or “measure” god using the same tools that we use to measure other aspects of the real world won’t (and can't) work.
All I know is that, outside of the marvels of the physical world, god hasn't left much evidence of his existence.
donkey

Time is only made possible by measuring the relative motion between a moving celestial body and [ultimately] a non-moving, stationary one.

So if an astronaut is sent to another galaxy (where the earth and the sun in our solar system have no effect), thus changing the measurements between static bodies and non-moving ones - does time change or does the measurement change? Time as measured by us on earth is based on our own experiantial situation as related to our earth and sun.
Or if an astronaut is sent out to a void in space where no celestial bodies are present or exert measurable influence on the astronaut - will the astronaut stop experiencing thought or will everything "freeze" until the astronaut comes in contact again with some celestial body and then time begin again?
Time vs the measurement of time....understand the difference - it makes it easier to comprehend. Do not confuse time (the lapse of life - from our perspective) with the ability to calibrate or measure it. Too often intellectuals confuse the two.
I am just a simple ass.
Jack
Realist

hello teejay,
interesting post!
firstly two little corrections about what zach said. time and space are both not inifinite. time and space came into existance at the big bang. but thats just a side note.
about reality...its only our individual perception of the world that is not absolute and in part an illusion. the world itself is real. a being that would know all the particles in the universe as well as the exact laws that guide these particles could calculate the future precisly. for us its indeed just a matter of probability. with our limited abilities we can predict the exact future of only very limited systems for a very limited timespan.
scientifically noone can exclude the possibility that the universe was "created" and might has a deeper meaning that we are not aware off. this possibility cannot be denied. however the idea of a caring god respectively a human like (mentally at least) being that rules over the universe is highly absurd.
teejay

Time vs the measurement of time....understand the difference - it makes it easier to comprehend. Do not confuse time (the lapse of life - from our perspective) with the ability to calibrate or measure it. – Jack

Good observation. I agree totally. The passage of time is consistent (I think) and independent of the material world. It would be measurable in a void where nothing existed.
time and space are both not inifinite. time and space came into existance at the big bang.

I disagree, Realist.
By infinite I mean that as far as can be known, they stretch endlessly in both directions – forward and back. Before the Big Bang there had to be both time and space. Both will exist into the infinite future. As Zech said, an astronaut could never come to the end of space regardless of the direction of travel.
about reality...its only our individual perception of the world that is not absolute and in part an illusion. a being that would know all the particles in the universe as well as the exact laws that guide these particles could calculate the future precisly. for us its indeed just a matter of probability.

That’s the whole point! There’s no one who knows all the particles in the universe and all of the natural laws with certainty. That being the case, our perception, everyone’s perception, is – to some degree – an illusion. That’s why I see little reason for a dogmatic stance against the possibility that there is a god. Or taking a condescending view toward those that happen to believe in one.
Who knows?
Realist

teejay,
time and space do not exist outside of our universe. what "lies" outside the universe cannot be imagined or determined.
dedalus

That’s why I see little reason for a dogmatic stance against the possibility that there is a god. Or taking a condescending view toward those that happen to believe in one.

How about taking a condescending view towards those who dogmatically believe in God?
Dedalus
Francois

Time = The lapse of life? Please define.
And think about this if you think that time can be measured in a vacuum so far out in space that no movement is taking place in celestial bodies. You continue to measure time with the measuring device you brought with you from your home planet, and it is still measuring the time in your home galaxy on your home planet as defined by the relative movement of two celestial bodies, is it not?. It is not measuring local time; there is nothing locally on which to base time measurement.
I think you're attempting to complexify the issue when it's sufficiently complex already.
TJ, JT Yes. I think you have it right. You guys in my opinion are going to New York from Atlanta via Miami, the long way around in your way of saying that the only reality is NOW. This is because the past does not exist except for certain neurons in the brain designed to remember things. The past cannot be touched, felt, or smelt. It is simply not real. It's gone, never to return.
The future isn't real either except for certain speculations in the mind and/or imagination. It can't be touched, felt, or smelt either. It's isn't here yet, thus it isn't real either.
Thus the only thing that is real is NOW.....................................and NOW,...................................and NOW...........................................throught out all future eternity. And the way we CHOOSE to experience and KNOW each of these NOWS creates and recreates the universe with each and every one of these NOWS.
You know, this conversation could get very existential very fast.
francois
francois
teejay

How about taking a condescending view towards those who dogmatically believe in God? – Dedalus

Hey, dogmatically believing in god is different than saying dogmatically that there is one. Same for atheists and atheism: it’s a bit arrogant for a puny human less than a microsecond old (cosmically) to speak with absolute certainty about what does and doesn’t exist in the universe.
... the measuring device you brought with you from your home planet is still measuring the time in your home galaxy... It is not measuring local time; there is nothing locally on which to base time measurement.

Francois,
If you stay there in the void of space where there is no movement, you will still age. Stay there long enough and you will die there. Why? Because of the passage of time. The seconds, minutes, and hours will continue to pass whether apparent to you or not.
... the past does not exist except for certain neurons in the brain designed to remember things. The future isn't real either except for certain speculations in the mind and/or imagination. Thus the only thing that is real is NOW.....................................and NOW,...................................and NOW...........................................throught out all future eternity.

Yeah. I believe the book that I quoted at the start of this thread said pretty much the same thing. Since the only thing that’s “real” is the NOW, and since our particular view of NOW is dependent on our singular perspective (and all that entails), whether or not god exists becomes quite relative to the individual. Those that believe believe because they believe... for whatever reason. Doesn't make god real. Doesn't make god unreal, either, simply because I choose NOT to believe.
You know, this conversation could get very existential very fast.

Who you tellin’?

faith and illusion

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