faith and illusion

teejay

On another forum, a discussion has centered on the belief (or lack thereof) in the existence of god.

A believer, “Zechariah”, I thought offered a pretty good argument as to why it makes sense to believe. When asked the question “Where did god come from,” Zechariah said

Basically the answer is it's beyond our comprehension as a lot of things are but we know its true.

Man cannot comprehend infinity though he knows it exists. He can’t comprehend that space has no end. If man could somehow travel to what he believes is the deepest recesses of space perhaps he will find a brick wall there. What is he going to wonder? How thick is the wall and what’s on the other side of that. The same is true of time. Though man is well aware there was no beginning to time and no end it has to be true.

I’ve never thought of it that way before. Space and time are both known elements of "reality" but, like god, are difficult to understand, explain, or ever fully know. Also, they, like "god" are both thought to be eternal and infinite – without beginning or end.

The non-believers/atheists of the board came out in full force to counter Zechariah's post, of course, but I thought he (?) made a good point. Personally, I seriously question the existence of god but I’m not so certain as to say that such a being absolutely, categorically does not exist. I'm just at the point where, based on what I've personally come to see and know, I choose not to believe.

The discussion on that forum meshed nicely with an email that my sister sent just yesterday. It’s a quote from a book (The Vanished Man – Jeffrey Deaver) that she’s reading were one of the characters says

I’m not sure there is much reality. Isn’t most of our lives illusion? Everything in the past is memory. Everything in the future is imagination. Those are both illusions-memories are unreliable and we just speculate about the future. The only thing that’s completely real is this one instant of the present—and that’s constantly changing. Most of life is illusory.

So much of what we “know” hinges on simple faith or belief -- and so much of that is transitory. As Zechariah said in the aforementioned debate, belief is simply a matter of choosing to do so, as is the choice NOT to believe. In the end and either way, isn’t it all a matter of illusion?

JamesThomas

Perhaps what the word "God" points to is indeed Infinite: without ends, or bounds, or limits. No less present this moment, right here, than in any other place and time. And if this were so, we could not objectify It as a thing, as person or entity separate and apart from us. We could not understand it as we understand finite things, with our finite mind. We could not see It, as the eye can not see itself, or as the tongue can not taste itself. Thus, we could never know or understand God, the ultimate Source of all things. We could at best only awaken to and realize that at the core and essence of out true Being, we are It. What if all phenomenal existence was illusion? and the only Truth, That, which we ultimately are? Unformed and unending, pure and pristine. The logically and intellectually unknowable -- I Am. JamesT

Introspection

So much of what we “know” hinges on simple faith or belief -- and so much of that is transitory.

Yes it is isn't it, you have to have some kind of assumption to start with in order to logically deduce other conclusions. Of course, there is no such thing as a true belief - it's pretty much an arbitrary choice as you've pointed out.

I think when you see this you start becoming aware of your own mind, your thought processes - since that is basically how it works. You might then reasonably ask what is aware of my thought processes? The intention here is of course to take a step back and not so much engage in more intellectual tail chasing, but just look - if you are really interested.

In terms of what you're talking about, most intellectuals are basically interested in knowing their particular illusory view in detail. You have to actually be interested in what's real before you start to even look.

rem

It's not a point at all. Not everybody 'knows' it's true (i.e. the existence of god). For example, it's impossible for me to comprehend an invisible pink unicorn. That doesn't make it rational to believe in such a being. At best it's a false analogy.

rem

dedalus

Though man is well aware there was no beginning to time and no end it has to be true.

Feels wishy-washy to me. For one thing, this claim seems demonstrably false, if one just read a little bit about time and space and such. Time as a linear construct extending indefinitely in both directions is -- correct me, someone, if I'm wrong -- not scientifically sophisticated.

Dedalus

teejay

JamesThomas,

I didn’t understand a word of what you said, but thanks for your contribution.

__________

... you have to have some kind of assumption to start with in order to logically deduce other conclusions.

Agreed, Introspection.

Whatever belief we currently hold, it begins with a diaphanous assumption. A starting point that is dependent on our specific definition of “truth” a starting point dependent on our genetic makeup, our history, our upbringing, our life experience. Since no two of us are alike, is it any wonder that there are so many religions.

__________

Not everybody 'knows' it's true (i.e. the existence of god). – rem

Ah!, but some (many?) do - or haven't you noticed! Some “know” that there is absolutely a god. How they've figuered this out I've yet to logically determine. Others on the other side of the coin are equally self-assured. Somehow they “know” with abject certainty that there isn’t a god. Funny.

__________

Time as a linear construct extending indefinitely in both directions is -- correct me, someone, if I'm wrong -- not scientifically sophisticated.

Perhaps not sophisticated, Dedalus, but still true?

Or not?

JamesThomas

That's OK Teejay, I didn't understand any of it either. JamesT

teejay

I hope I didn’t offend, JT. I didn’t mean to.

Many many years ago, one summer day my older brother and I were out doing yard work. There was a line of ants climbing up and down a wall into their nest somewhere inside our house. I can’t remember his exact comment from 30 years ago, but as he washed down the wall hosing off 30 or 40 ants going to and from their nest he said something like, “they don’t see us or could ever understand who or what we are, yet we impact how they live.”

I don’t remember exactly why he said it, but the episode might very well explain our ignorance of who/what god is: He exists, he’s far advanced beyond us, and he doesn’t care any more for us than we care for a line of 30 or 40 ants climbing into a hole in a wall.

dedalus

Perhaps not sophisticated, Dedalus, but still true?
Or not?

I don't know. I recall attending a conference, most of which went over my head, in which two professors were sparring. One insisted on using some kind of consistent, universal, logistic yardstick by which (so far as I could follow his argument) all phenomena and knowledge in the universe could be evaluated, including our notions of time. The other professor replied that this was irrelevant, since time was linear and sequential, and this was how we experienced time, so everything else was purely speculative and theoretical and meaningless in the context of actual human experience.

And that's just philosophy -- never mind what science said. I've never made up my mind about that stuff. And I've just now had too many rum and cokes to try applying it to your thread.

Honestly, I think I just wanted to have a say in a thread you started because of the bad blood between us. And honestly, I want to call a truce. I'm sorry for insulting your writing all that time ago. Period.

Dedalus

Francois

Well, personally I think that time is NOT a linear construct extending indefinitely in both directions. Think about it. Time is only made possible by measuring the relative motion between a moving celestial body and [ultimately] a non-moving, stationary one. (Remember that longitude was finally determinable via differences in time between two places.)

At some point in the eons past, there was no material universe, thus no motion of any kind between celestial bodies, since there weren't any. Consequently, time is a phenomena that extends indefinitely in only one direction, the future. And I believe that it is not one, long, straightaway drive but rather a gigantic ellipse that ultimately returns to itself.

And where does all this get us? I haven't the faintest idea. I'm still working it all out, but I'm certain it's going to lead somewhere. When, I don't know.

francois

faith and illusion

Share this