An interesting Observation of some Bibles

by Blotty 27 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • hooberus
    hooberus


    Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

    2 She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

    3 She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

    Proverbs 9:1-3 KJV


    Folly is personified later on in Chapter 9 as a foolish woman that has her own house too.

    13 A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.

    14 For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city,

    15 To call passengers who go right on their ways:

    Proverbs 9:13-15 KJV

    So you have wisdom in her house (9:1) and a foolish woman in her house (9:14).

    There is no need to interpret either of these passages as referring to any actual persons.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Below is an interesting quote from a Watchtower publication (Insight from the Scriptures vol. 2 . 1019).

    “Personification does not prove personality. It is true that Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper” and spoke of such helper as ‘teaching,’ ‘bearing witness,’ ‘giving evidence,’ ‘guiding,’ ‘speaking,’ ‘hearing,’ and ‘receiving.’ In so doing, the original Greek shows Jesus at times applying the masculine personal pronoun to that “helper” (paraclete). (Compare Joh 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15.) However, it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33;8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT)”

    So when attacking the personhood of the Spirit, they appeal to wisdom in proverbs “not” being actually a person.

    Also, they admit that feminine forms are used in the original Hebrew.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    When the spirit is personified it is a way of speaking about God and his actions in the world. It doesn’t mean the spirit itself is a person, but it points to God (who is a person) and his action in the world.

    When wisdom is personified in Proverbs 8:22ff it is a way of speaking about Jesus and his life with God before coming to earth. It doesn’t mean that wisdom itself is a person, but it points to Jesus as God’s first creation, who became a human and dwelt with mankind.

    So it is correct to say that personification doesn’t make either the spirit or wisdom into persons. But on some occasions when the spirit and wisdom are personified then it is a way of speaking about God and his Son respectively.

    I think that attempting to argue that Prov 8:22ff is not referring to Jesus is a difficult road to go down from a Christian perspective, because NT authors draw upon wisdom and take it for granted as a way of talking about Jesus, implicitly (John 1:1–18; Col 1:15; Rev 3:14) and explicitly (1 Cor 1:30). Early Christian authors identified Prov 8:22ff as referring to Jesus on all sides of the debate over Christology. In fact it was one of the most often quoted passages in the entire OT as applying to Jesus. Verses 30 and 31 of Proverbs 8 are so apt as description of Jesus that, if you believe in Jesus and believe in the Bible, then it’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that this is meant (inspired) to be taken as a reference to Jesus.

    30 then I was beside him, like a master worker; (or little child)
    and I was daily his delight,
    rejoicing before him always,
    31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
    and delighting in the human race.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    Slimboy

    "As you mention, some argue that the word archē here doesn’t mean “beginning”, but “ruler”, and others “origin”. Yet the go-to scholarly Greek lexicon (known by the initials BDAG) in the latest edition says that it means “beginning” in this verse."

    Not only that but nowhere does John use Arkhe to mean "ruler" (or "origin") for that he always uses the object noun "Arkhon".. Luke only proves arkhe can mean "ruler" but the difference is ALL Luke's occurrence's are evident from the context used (similar to plural unity).. so the argument used about Rev 3:14 (and the others ) is erroneous purely based on that fact alone..

    Jhine:

    "I see no evidence for this in the Bible so where does this come from?"

    On Jesus being Michael the archangel.. the similarities between the two are amazing.. just as Jesus and Wisdom are described very similarly.. The evidence on him being the archangel is even more likely based 1 thes 4:16 - Why come with a lesser authority than what you already have? Stafford I believe has a really indepth video on this subject

    (I may go into more detail on this at another time, this is all I will say for now)

    Hooberus:

    "So when attacking the personhood of the Spirit, they appeal to wisdom in proverbs “not” being actually a person."

    I don't think attacking is the right word..

    secondly many things are personified in the bible.. as was the holy spirit (Slimboy and Wonderment are ones who have made several comments on this subject)

    The gender of nouns really doesn't matter for personification.. There are many other gender conflicting examples in the bible of "personification" - one need not search too far..

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Deleted
  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Ancient mystical religious philosophy is as foreign to most modern Christians as Hinduism. Asking if logos or wisdom or light or son are physically identified in Jesus is like asking if Vishnu really had blue skin. It's simply a question that betrays ignorance. I'm hardly an expert in such matters but know enough to know how naive I am. A few works from writers like Ben Sira and Philo have survived. Take some time to learn how they developed these concepts. the writers of the New testament were heavily influenced by the metaphor and conceptualizations in the ethos of the day. Some even quoted them.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Verses 30 and 31 of Proverbs 8 are so apt as description of Jesus that, if you believe in Jesus and believe in the Bible, then it’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that this is meant (inspired) to be taken as a reference to Jesus.
    30 then I was beside him, like a master worker; (or little child)
    and I was daily his delight,
    rejoicing before him always,
    31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
    and delighting in the human race.

    No, it's not difficult to not apply this passage to Jesus.

    1.) This passage is never directly quoted and referenced to Jesus in the New Testament.

    and

    2.) It is easily and naturally explained simply as a personification of an attribute of God in its original context.

    Do you interpret Proverbs 1:20-21 as a reference to Jesus?

    20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

    21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

    22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?


    How about 8:1-12?

    1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

    2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

    3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

    4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

    5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

    6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

    7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

    8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

    9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

    10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

    11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

    12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    In reality trying to marry Figures, Motifs, Poetic metaphors and Messianic statements in the Hebrew Scriptures to an itinerant preacher from Nazareth is a nonsense invented by those Jewish Christians as they built up the Jesus Myth.

    No writer in the Hebrew Scriptures could have had foreknowledge of Jesus of Nazareth.

    What interests me more than the links made by N.T writers is the origin of things in the Hebrew Scriptures. Leading Scholars in near eastern texts and Religions such as John Day and Mark.S.Smith,suggest that the figure of "Wisdom" draws on earlier older motifs pertaining to the goddess Asherah, consort to El in Canaanite religion, and, as is now thought, consort to Yahweh in pre-Babylonian Exile Israelite religion. So Wisdom was a real person, not just a metaphor, she was the Goddess Asherah.

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