An interesting Observation of some Bibles (page 2)

jhine

I'm going slightly off piste here. I believe that the Watchtower identity Jesus with Michael the Arch Angel . This appears to be part of their denial of the Trinity.

I see no evidence for this in the Bible so where does this come from?

Jan

Jhine...it's another case of circular reasoning. Since we believe Jesus alone can do this or that and Michael does this and that, they must be same character. The texts themselves do not suggest it. It also ignores Jewish angelology from the period.

slimboyfat

Yes from what I understand the most straightforward understanding of Rev 3:14 is that Jesus is “the beginning of the creation of God”, i.e. the first one created. I think Hugh Schonfield has a footnote at this verse where he says that clearly the early Christians believed Jesus was a created being.

Trinitarians have a number of responses to this. As you mention, some argue that the word archē here doesn’t mean “beginning”, but “ruler”, and others “origin”. Yet the go-to scholarly Greek lexicon (known by the initials BDAG) in the latest edition says that it means “beginning” in this verse.

Other Trinitarians, who accept “beginning of the creation of God” as the correct translation, will argue that this does not refer to Jesus as the first creation of God, but refers to the “new creation” instead. I suppose this means it is acceptable for Trinitarians to describe Jesus as a creation in the context of the “new creation” but not in relation to the original creation.

There are so many verses that Trinitarians must “explain away” if they are to maintain that Jesus was not created or did not have a beginning: “he created me, the beginning of his way” (Prov 8:22); “the firstborn of all creation” (Col 1:15); “the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev 3:14); “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57). Another one I came across the other day while reading a book by Maurice Wiles is Hebrews 3:2. This verse seems to apply the word “made” to Jesus (see the original NWT), which is a word that later Trinitarians argued was heresy if applied to Jesus. If Jesus wasn’t created by God then you have got to wonder why so many parts of the Bible give that impression and need to be explained away in order to conform with later dogma.

hooberus

T

Earnest

jhine : I see no evidence for [identifying Jesus with Michael the Arch Angel] in the Bible so where does this come from?

The evidence is presented on the JW website here. I would note that the article says "Consider why it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus is the archangel Michael...". The fact that it is reasonable or likely does not mean that it is so, but only that it may be.

Clearly the notion that Jesus is reasonably the archangel Michael could only be held by those who do not believe he has always existed, and so is not even entertained by trinitarian churches. But there were some early Christian writers who shared the same view.

peacefulpete

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slimboyfat

Earnest, if I recall correctly, Luther believed that Jesus is the archangel Michael, as do Seventh-day Adventists, but claim it is compatible with Trinitarianism.

Earnest

slim, I don't recall that Luther believed Jesus to be the archangel Michael but Calvin considered it possible in his Commentary on Daniel (Lecture 65).

William Miller (a prominent Second Adventist in the early 19th century) believed that Jesus is the archangel Michael (Evidences From Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ, 1836, pp.83,84), so perhaps that is why the belief is shared by JW and SDA.

slimboyfat

Sorry, yes I mixed up Luther and Calvin.

Yes the idea that Jesus is the archangel Michael is something JWs share with the Adventist tradition.

hooberus

20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Proverbs 1:20-22 KJV

Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

Proverbs 8:1-3 KJV

Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

2 She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

3 She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

Proverbs 9:1-3 KJV

Wisdom is an attribute of God that is personified as a woman in Proverbs. Its gender is feminine.

An interesting Observation of some Bibles

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