If Your JW Relative Needed Blood, Would You Force It On Them?

by minimus 119 Replies latest jw friends

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  onacruse

  Alan, sorry that I kept you up late last night...but I always learn from our conversations You're a good friend, and a good man.

  : For example, there are numerous societies that consider euthanasia ethical (including doctor-assisted suicide here in Oregon);

  Within strictly defined limits, of course. In Oregon, if I remember right, the person must be judged by a panel of doctors to be terminal, and the person must pass strict tests to prove to the state that he is of sound mind and knows exactly what he is doing. This is precisely what my example about me and my wife is all about; we fully agree with Oregon's law. This stance, I think, is consistent with the general intent of my above expressed opinion.

  In this context I'm compelled to ask: What gives us the right to assert that the opinion of a Board of medical professionals, after "strict tests," is any more valid than the opinion of a theological body, even after not-so-strict tests?

  I've alluded to the Aristotleian rationalism of western civilization in another thread, and I think it's also relevant here. Your/our/my (apparent) compulsion to put up demonstrable scientific evidence misses the essence of our individual human existence.

  If I may be so bold: "Live and let live, die and let die, do unto others as..." is not a bad way to go.

  Craig
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  SixofNine

  do unto others as..." is not a bad way to go.

  Just so!
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  minimus

  Damn, This is a pretty good question, huh???
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  jgnat

  Don't let it go to your head, Minimus. You have a ways to go to catch up to Cheeses' fluff thread.
• 

  onacruse

  Six:

  I think you got locked into your drawing a bit too quickly,

  jgnat:

  perhaps you have boxed yourself in too early.

  With your continued tolerance, I submit that I haven't boxed myself into anything. I'm just throwing out my thoughts, based on what I think is a fair amount of reasonable consideration. And I'll gladly change my perspectives, insofar as I reasonable consideration is handed back to me.

  However, God knows that I've spent my entire life in a "box," one from which I'm still escaping. And, in all honesty, sometimes I'm not sure that I'm really escaping from that box, or just running to another part of the same box. My mind has played tricks on me before (damnit, mind, quit that!!! LOL)

  Craig
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  DJ

  I have lived long enough and been through many traumatic experiences to say that without a doubt, I don't know if I would or not. I lean toward, No, I would never force someone.....that's absurd. It is a crucial belief to most jw's and I would not disrepect it though I see it as mercy and the jw's as hypocritical with that teaching.Yet, one really never knows what they would do for sure in certain situations. I lean toward no, but I never say never. Unless you've walked in those shoes.....close your lips. love, dj
• 

  SixofNine

  God knows that I've spent my entire life in a "box," one from which I'm still escaping. And, in all honesty, sometimes I'm not sure that I'm really escaping from that box, or just running to another part of the same box.

  There is a danger, imo, of not-fighting-the-real-enemy. The upper middle aged man who left the WT as a young man but blames his failed relationships with females on having to go out in service as a kid comes to mind. Perhaps "JW like thinking" isn't really even close to the enemy in this case?

  I've heard it said that to a man who only owns a hammer, everything solution will include hammering. In photography, one reason not to buy (as opposed to renting on an as needed basis) certain tools of the trade (cameras) is because that tool will become the solution for every problem, the (literally in this case) lens thru which every solution has to come. I don't know exactly how to convince you that you aren't dealing with "JW like thinking" in this thread, if that is your lens, your "box" camera, pardon the pun. Personally, I see huge differences.

  I can't think of anything more "JW" than insisting that your particular religious beliefs take life or death precedence (in fact believing the world revolves around your small beliefs), so those of us saying we'll ignore that thinking, thank you very much, can hardly be accused of JW-type thinking.
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  onacruse

  Six: I think this is the longest exchange you and I have ever had, eh? We'll have to stop meeting like this LOL

  I don't know exactly how to convince you that you aren't dealing with "JW like thinking" in this thread, if that is your lens, your "box" camera, pardon the pun. Personally, I see huge differences.

  I certainly don't mean to arbitrarily pigeon-hole anyone here as being JW-minded, per se. As a comparison, I'm thinking of Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. There is a fundamental, though "uncomfortable," (and commonly denied) historical and sociologically demonstrable connection between Protestantism (esp. via pre-destination theology) and the personal human motivations that drive capitalism. Not to say that it's right or wrong...just to recognize that it's a very viable explanation for why we do what we do. So, as an exJW, I'd be remiss to discount the possibility that I may very well be reflecting the same essential motivations that drove me for all my life, even though I think I've escaped from that mindset. Which leads me to your next:

  I can't think of anything more "JW" than insisting that your particular religious beliefs take life or death precedence (in fact believing the world revolves around your small beliefs), so those of us saying we'll ignore that thinking, thank you very much, can hardly be accused of JW-type thinking.

  If I take your meaning correctly, then you wouldn't insist that your own particular religious (or otherwise) beliefs take precedence over others (including your JW relatives), that they are fully entitled to make those decisions for themselves, and that you'd abide by their decisions (even if you disagreed)?

  If not, then on what basis do you justify imposing your opinion on another adult? To what universally recognized authority do you appeal to validate your action?

  Respectfully,

  Craig
• 

  jgnat

  If not, then on what basis do you justify imposing your opinion on another adult? To what universally recognized authority do you appeal to validate your action?

  Ha! I have an easy answer to this one. I can't be boxed in to JW thinking, because I never entered in to that box. Yet I continue to maintain that I can go behind my loved-one's back and make a decision for him because I think his reasoning stinks. Or he hasn't been reasoned out completely. Do note that I gave him due warning that I would do this.

  Reverence for life overrides a lot. That just because someone has made a decision does not make it an informed decision. What if that choice was coerced, and was not a free-will decision at all? My son was suicidal. I had no intention of bowing to his opinion (and therefore respecting his decision) when that opinion included terminating his life. My son has since forgiven me for my overriding interference in his life. He has other things to be mad at me for now. I am glad he is around to give me his opinion on things.
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  onacruse

  AlanF, HS, Gamaliel, jgnat, et al:

  Alan was kind enough yet again to indulge me in a prolonged conversation, and he offered a constructive criticism that I take at full value: In this thread, I've not specifically addressed every point you all have brought up. It's not my intention to ignore any of your thoughts; I respect all of you too much to discount what you share.

  So, please bear with me. I've got some homework to do, eh?

  Craig <----of the "still escaping" class