Where did Enoch go - God transferred him?

by Fisherman 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    God did not take the lives of the wicked contemporaries of Enoch, instead he took the life of Enoch. And that seems like a great injustice to deprive innocent Enoch of life instead of killing the wicked. —I said seems.

    A man goes to get surgery but first they give him an opiate like narcotic and he falls asleep gladly and with pleasure and euphoria. He wakes up after a long time and didn’t even feel time pass. With Enoch it was the real thing. He saw paradise and then he died. Imagine seeing an angel or even a vision of God or God talking to you and reassuring you—the ecstasy. He will open his eyes and time did not exist.

  • enoughisenough
    enoughisenough
    I have considered the dieing on the operating table wouldn't be the worst thing. You go in with whatever ails you and are likely hopeful that it works out; but if it doesn't you, like Job do your compulsory service until you are remembered.
  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    According to the Bible, God did not end Enoch's life. The WT is wrong to say that according to the Bible God killed Enoch. About an hour before you made you post I searched this web site to see if anyone had a post about this topic, since yours had not yet been posted. [I saw the topic located at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/156276/enoch-watchtower-society which mostly recently received a post 6 months ago, and I thought of posting there but I decided not to.] I did the search very after reading a box on a page in The NIV Student Bible, Revised, Compact Edition (Copyright 198, 1992, 2002). I found that box because I had been browsing through that book last night to decide if I should keep it or sell it (I had not studied that book in years). The box says the following.

    '5:24 The Man Who Did Not Die

    All but one of the brief biographies in chapter 5 end with the words "and then he died." We know very little about the exception, Enoch, except that he walked with God. Enoch did not die; he "was no more, because god took him away." Based on this evidence, Hebrews 11:5-6 commends Enoch as a man of faith, since "without faith it is impossible to please God." '

    I am very surprised that you made this topic thread very shortly after I had searched to see if there had already been created on this web site a topic thread about Enoch being taken away. I have also noticed similar coincidences in regards to some other topic threads and in other experiences in my life. Such is mystifying to me.

  • Jehalapeno
    Jehalapeno

    Where did Enoch go?

    Middle-Earth, of course.

    Or insert any other fictional destination.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    According to the Bible, God did not end Enoch's life. The WT is wrong

    Compare Hebrews 11:5 with 11:13

    I have also noticed similar coincidences in regards to other topic threads and in other experiences in my life. Such is mystifying to me.

    After lighting striking multiple times on the same point, you should be able to conclude that it is no coincidence at some point.


  • ThomasMore
    ThomasMore

    I recall that WTC tried to explain "God took him" to mean that he was injured by his opposers, so God transferred him to a place where he could die peacefully, menwhile providing a glimpse of what lay ahead as a reward for his faithfulness. This explanation seems to make sense. Even a broken clock is right 2X a day...

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Fisherman, in regards to my words about that which I called coincidences and about me being mystified by them, I meant I don't know what the cause is of such happening. Their cause is a mystery to me. Some people say everyone and everything is interconnected in the universe. I wonder if that is the explanation, but I don't know if it is. The incidences might not be really be coincidences, but if not what why do they happen?

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death, and he was not to be found because God took him up. For before his removal he had been commended as having pleased God" (Heb. 11:5 NET).

    Jesus stated categorically: "No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven– the Son of Man" (John 3:13 NET).

    According to a dictionary definition Gr. "taken up" means "removal to another place" or "of the taking up" or "taking away." The same dictionary gives two options for "death": 1) Natural death. 2) Death as a penalty (BDAG). That means he did not die a natural death or he was taken somewhere and kept in limbo. The latter would appeal to a Catholic. I would go for the first option according to the following: "And Enoch walked with God, and he was not; for God took him" (Gen. 5:24 JPS).

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Regarding the words stated at John 3:13 I don't know if Jesus ever said them. What I do know is that according the biblical book named According to John, Jesus said those words. But, the book might be wrong in attributing those words to Jesus. Even if Jesus actually said those words, note that according to the narrative of which John 3:13 is a part, Jesus had not yet died and not yet been resurrected. Notice that verse says Jesus (the pre-resurrection Jesus according to the narrative) says the Son of Man is the one who has ascended into heaven. How can one explain that if one believes that Jesus is the son of man? Does that mean that according to narrative Jesus claimed that Jesus ascended to heaven before Jesus died on Earth (perhaps even making trips to Earth prior to being conceived in the womb of Mary)? Some Christians think so, but it is not clear to me that the Bible teaches such. Even if it does teach such, the OT claims that angels from heaven came down to Earth and later returned to heaven. Are these biblical claims examples of the Bible contradicting itself?

    A number of scholars say that the historical Jesus did not consider himself to be the son of man, but that later Christians (prior to the NT gospel account being written) came to believe Jesus was the son of man. Many current Christians believe that Jesus is the son of man and that he claimed to be the son of man, but they might be wrong in believing such.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Here's the NET footnote of John 3:13. Quite comprehensive and gives the different readings (for those who have an interest in textual criticism):

    tc Most witnesses, including a few important ones (A[*] Θ Ψ 050 ƒ1, 13 Û latt syc,p,h), have at the end of this verse "the one who is in heaven" (ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ho on en to ourano). A few others have variations on this phrase, such as "who was in heaven" (e syc), or "the one who is from heaven" (0141 pc sys). The witnesses normally considered the best, along with several others, lack the phrase in its entirety (î66, 75 ‌א‎‏‎ B L T Ws 083 086 33 1241 pc co). On the one hand, if the reading ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ is authentic it may suggest that while Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus he spoke of himself as in heaven even while he was on earth. If that is the case, one could see why variations from this hard saying arose: "who was in heaven," "the one who is from heaven," and omission of the clause. At the same time, such a saying could be interpreted (though with difficulty) as part of the narrator's comments rather than Jesus' statement to Nicodemus, alleviating the problem. And if v. Joh 3:13 was viewed in early times as the evangelist's statement, "the one who is in heaven" could have crept into the text through a marginal note. Other internal evidence suggests that this saying may be authentic. The adjectival participle, ὁ ὤν, is used in the Fourth Gospel more than any other NT book (though the Apocalypse comes in a close second), and frequently with reference to Jesus (Joh 1:18; Joh 6:46; Joh 8:47). It may be looking back to the LXX of Exo 3:14 (ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν). Especially since this exact construction is not necessary to communicate the location of the Son of Man, its presence in many witnesses here may suggest authenticity. Further, John uses the singular of οὐρανός (ouranos, "heaven") in all 18 instances of the word in this Gospel, and all but twice with the article (only Joh 1:32 and Joh 6:58 are anarthrous, and even in the latter there is significant testimony to the article). At the same time, the witnesses that lack this clause are very weighty and must not be discounted. Generally speaking, if other factors are equal, the reading of such MSS should be preferred. And internally, it could be argued that ὁ ὤν is the most concise way to speak of the Son of Man in heaven at that time (without the participle the point would be more ambiguous). Further, the articular singular οὐρανός is already used twice in this verse, thus sufficiently prompting scribes to add the same in the longer reading. This combination of factors suggests that ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ is not a genuine Johannism. Further intrinsic evidence against the longer reading relates to the evangelist's purposes: If he intended v. Joh 3:13 to be his own comments rather than Jesus' statement, his switch back to Jesus' words in v. Joh 3:14 (for the lifting up of the Son of Man is still seen as in the future) seems inexplicable. The reading "who is in heaven" thus seems to be too hard. All things considered, as intriguing as the longer reading is, it seems almost surely to have been a marginal gloss added inadvertently to the text in the process of transmission. For an argument in favor of the longer reading, see David Alan Black, "The Text of Joh 3:13, " GTJ 6 (1985): 49-66.

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