Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 136 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Can you remind me, what did Philo say about the translation “created” in Prov 8.22? I missed that. I think I recall, Philo talks about the Logos being created, and describes it as an archangel, if I remember correctly. I don’t remember a comment by Philo about wisdom in Prov 8.22 specifically contradicting the translation “created”.

    As it is, the LXX, the Peshitta, Targum, and the vast majority of modern translators, Jewish and Christian, favour “created” in Prov 8.22. That’s a lot of weight to put on Jerome, and early Jewish translations that were produced in reaction, and in opposition to the LXX, as used by Christians, to overturn the prevailing consensus that favours “created”.

    In addition to being “created”, the passage also says wisdom was the first of God’s acts, was “set up”, and “brought forth”. Only if you read into the text much later Trinitarian concepts can you escape the clear implication that God brought “Wisdom” into being at the start of creation.

    As Origen described it:

    For I consider that as a house or a ship is built and fashioned in accordance with the sketches of the builder or designer, the house or the ship having their beginning (arche) in the sketches and reckonings in his mind, so all things came into being in accordance with the designs of what was to be, clearly laid down by God in wisdom. And we should add that having created, so to speak, ensouled wisdom, He left her to hand over, from the types which were in her, to things existing and to matter, the actual emergence of them, their moulding and their forms. Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of John i.22

    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101501.htm

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Philo of Alexandria used Prov 8:22–23 in De ebrietate 31 in the wording different from that in the Septuagint:

    ‘God acquired me as the first of all of his works, and before the age he founded me’ (ὁ θεὸς ἐκτήσατό με πρωτίστην τῶν ἑαυτοῦ ἔργων, καὶ πρὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἐθεμελίωσέ με).

    Here you can check it in original Greek.

    Why would Aquila, Theodotion, Symmachus want to favor the Christians? And again: "create" does not means "poio" in Arian sense. Neither 'qanah', nor 'nacak' means 'poio'. As for Dionysius of Rome:

    "But neither are they less to be blamed who think that the Son was a creation, and decided that the Lord was made just as one of those things which really were made; whereas the divine declarations testify that He was begotten, as is fitting and proper, but not that He was created or made. It is therefore not a trifling, but a very great impiety, to say that the Lord was in any wise made with hands. For if the Son was made, there was a time when He was not; but He always was, if, as He Himself declares, He is undoubtedly in the Father. And if Christ is the Word, the Wisdom, and the Power — for the divine writings tell us that Christ is these, as you yourselves know — assuredly these are powers of God. Wherefore, if the Son was made, there was a time when these were not in existence; and thus there was a time when God was without these things, which is utterly absurd. But why should I discourse at greater length to you about these matters, since you are men filled with the Spirit, and especially understanding what absurd results follow from the opinion which asserts that the Son was made? The leaders of this view seem to me to have given very little heed to these things, and for that reason to have strayed absolutely, by explaining the passage otherwise than as the divine and prophetic Scripture demands. The Lord created me the beginning of His ways. For, as you know, there is more than one signification of the word created; and in this place created is the same as set over the works made by Himself — made, I say, by the Son Himself. But this created is not to be understood in the same manner as made. For to make and to create are different from one another. Is not He Himself your Father, that has possessed you and created you? says Moses in the great song of Deuteronomy. And thus might any one reasonably convict these men. Oh reckless and rash men! Was then the first-born of every creature something made?— He who was begotten from the womb before the morning star? — He who in the person of Wisdom says, Before all the hills He begot me? Proverbs 8:25 Finally, any one may read in many parts of the divine utterances that the Son is said to have been begotten, but never that He was made. From which considerations, they who dare to say that His divine and inexplicable generation was a creation, are openly convicted of thinking that which is false concerning the generation of the Lord."

    As for Origen, are you like a stuck record player? Eh... I can't belive it. Or do you just not want to understand? Do you only function as an output, no input? How many times do I have to warn you? His writings at most show Subordinationism (rather than Arianism), which is a form of Trinitarianism that was not yet formally condemned, this is still so far from WTS Christology, and still much closer to the Catholic one.

    Your sources may keep coming up with quoting out of context from Origen, it is true that he was an exotic theologian, he often used confusing formulations, but you can only understand what he really taught if you read his entire writings, not by abusing some one-liners. It is no coincidence that the Arians did not refer to the authority of Origen to justify their position, since Origen clearly taught that the Son is begotten of the Father in the sense of eternal generation, within the being of God. Check: De Principiis IV.27, I.6, II.2.2, II.4.3, etc.
    Origen was a highly influential, but controversial and heresy-suspected teacher, who his contemporaries also had a hard time judging clearly. In hindsight, we cannot ignore his speculative thinking (allegorizing Bible interpretation), his gnostic origin belief in the existence of the human soul before physical birth (pre-existence), but especially that he considered the Son and the Holy Spirit inferior to the Father, and denied that it would be permissible to pray to the Son (cf. Acts 7:55-60). So, the Society wanted to build on the authority of Origen, someone they would reject due to his majority of false teachings, and whose theology the church neither considered nor considers authoritative at that time or today.
    I have drawn your attention many times to the fact that Origen was a diverse theologian, if he had lived later, he would have become likely a Jesuit, they often used speculations, thought experiments and thought processes that are even confusing. But you can't abuse Origen's theology as an authority to support for your own position by just picking out one quote, without evaluating his work as a whole. The later church also considered his Christology to be orthodox as a whole, and consequently it cannot be said that he professed WTS-like Christology, otherwise he would have been declared a heretic for his Christology. Quoting an author out of context and falsely portraying him to support a position that the author did not actually support, is disrespectful to the author, and it is incompatible with scientific methodology and elementary decency.
    The literature of the ancient church is abundant and diverse, but it does not at all support the conspiracy theory propagated by the Watchtower Society, according to which the Christians of the first centuries believed in what they teach according to their current "light": the "use" of the name Jehovah, Jesus as Michael, the Holy Spirit as "active force," two-group salvation, endtime speculations, 1914, true worship disappearing for 1800 years, "preaching" "house to house" "preaching", only yearly Eucharist without "partaking", etc ec..
  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    That’s interesting that Philo had “acquired”. Philo didn’t read Hebrew, so I wonder where he got the reading from, as it was before Jerome and the other non-LXX Greek versions were produced. The quote also says “God” rather than “Lord”, I wonder if that’s significant.

    As it is, “acquired” is arguably closer in meaning to “created” than Jerome’s “possessed”, in the crucial sense that an acquisition is a point in time, whereas possession is a state of affairs. The accompanying “first of his works” and “founded me” also point toward God creating wisdom before anything else.

    JWs agree that the creation of Jesus was different than the rest of creation because Jehovah created Jesus directly whereas he created everything else through his Son.

    The point of the quote from Origen was to show that he held a similar view about God first creating his Son, as personified Wisdom, then created everything else through his Son. You seem to be saying that because you consider Origen to be a Trinitarian it is therefore not legitimate to quote him when he agrees with JW understanding on a particular issue. That doesn’t follow, and the weight of the evidence is that Origen differed significantly from fourth century Nicene Trinitarianism in any case.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    That "Philo didn't read Hebrew" is definitely not true. It is certain that Greek was his first language, but that "didn't read Hebrew" is certainly not true. Even if it were true, it only weakens your position, since it just shows that the translation of 'qanah' as 'ktáomai' was a well-known and established Jewish reading back then, since all Jewish translators and interpreters after the LXX rendered it this way. And Jerome did not invent it himself, but while learning Hebrew from the Jews in Bethlehem took this reading from them, which was unknown before among the Greek and Latin speaking Christians, who had to defend the "begotten, not made" principle of the Son based on translation using the verb "ktizo" from the LXX. Check this: http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/christou_crebegot.html

    "As it is, “acquired” is arguably closer in meaning to “created” than Jerome’s “possessed”"

    Wrong, these these ancient Jewish translators and interpreters did not translate קנני (qānānî) with the English word "acquired", but with the Greek word ἐκτήσατο, which is third-person singular aorist middle indicative of κτάομαι (ktáomai), which has the following meanings:

    κτᾰ́ομαι • (ktáomai)
    1. (transitive) to get, obtain, acquire, gain, win
    1. (transitive, of consequences) to bring on oneself, incur
    1. (transitive, perfect and pluperfect) to have acquired, have, own, possess

    " in the crucial sense that an acquisition is a point in time, whereas possession is a state of affairs."

    Here we are not talking about any kind of "temporal" happening in specific "a point in time", but rather a poetic speech, from which it is hardly possible to derive a doctrinal principle.

    "The accompanying “first of his works” and “founded me” also point toward God creating wisdom before anything else."

    There is no such thing as "first of his works" or "founded me" in the text. Instead, "at/as the beginning of his ways" and in thext verse "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was." is in the text. The meaning of נָסַך (nasak) is not "founded me," but "anointed" (compare Psalm 2:6), "to pour forth" (as of molten metal), then "to put down," "to appoint or establish." In the Septuagint, "he established (ἐθεμελίωσε) me;" Vulgate, ordinate sum; Aquila, κατεστάθην; Symmachus, προεχείρισμαι; Venetian, κέχυμαι. There is no "timeliness" involved. So what is said here is that Wisdom was from everlasting exalted as ruler and disposer of all things. To express eternal relationship, three synonymous terms are used. From eternal; πρὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος, Septuagint, as Delitzsch notes, points back to infinite distance. Especially since the next phrase marks this "nasak" as "from the beginning". Compare 'rosh' in Exodus 12:2, Numbers 10:10, 28:11, Judges 7:19.

    "JWs agree that the creation of Jesus was different than the rest of creation because Jehovah created Jesus directly whereas he created everything else through his Son."

    However, that is not a significant difference, especially since, as it cannot be emphasized enough, the New Testament emphatically describes the Son's orign from the Father exclusively with the verb "begotten" (gennao) or "born" (tikto), which the New Testament never uses for the created world. So why can't the one used by the New Testament be accepted?

    "The point of the quote from Origen was to show that he held a similar view about God first creating his Son"

    Wrong: even if he used the term "ktizo", you cannot use it in the Arian/JW sense (which is practically: poio), because it turns out that Oirgen did not interpret it that way, so his citation is out of context, also disregarding nuances lost in translation, so it is unfair to the author. Dionysius of Rome pointed out that "there is more than one meaning of the word created" (ktizo), and "this created is not to be understood in the same manner as made". You would have the burden of proving that Origen did not mean it that way. Check: De Principiis IV.27, I.6, II.2.2, II.4.3, etc., also:

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    actually it weakens your position.. doesn't take much to figure out why..

    - you selectively quote the BlogSpot article/ origen in some places

    - "Arian/JW sense" How can JW be "Arian" when there is practically none of Arius's writings to go on?

    if you can find me a scripture that articulates what you claim, which shouldn't be hard since other apparent trinitarians did it.. then ill believe you..

    ""The accompanying “first of his works” and “founded me” also point toward God creating wisdom before anything else."

    There is no such thing as "first of his works" or "founded me" in the text. Instead, "at/as the beginning of his ways" and in thext verse "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was." is in the text. The meaning of נָסַך (nasak) is not "founded me," but "anointed" (compare Psalm 2:6), "to pour forth" (as of molten metal), then "to put down," "to appoint or establish." In the Septuagint, "he established (ἐθεμελίωσε) me;" Vulgate, ordinate sum; Aquila, κατεστάθην; Symmachus, προεχείρισμαι; Venetian, κέχυμαι. There is no "timeliness" involved. So what is said here is that Wisdom was from everlasting exalted as ruler and disposer of all things. To express eternal relationship, three synonymous terms are used. From eternal; πρὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος, Septuagint, as Delitzsch notes, points back to infinite distance. Especially since the next phrase marks this "nasak" as "from the beginning". Compare 'rosh' in Exodus 12:2, Numbers 10:10, 28:11, Judges 7:19."
    - you have omitted information from this that is quite important "πρὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος" is used of things that are not "eternal" aswell.. I can list quite a few things that are said to be everlasting but are not. infact I dont have to one of the articles I cited does it for me..


    "Especially since the next phrase marks this "nasak" as "from the beginning"." - could be multiple things, this weakens your point as "beginning" is never meant as from eternity EVER!

    "The meaning of נָסַך (nasak) is not "founded me," but "anointed" (compare Psalm 2:6)" - words can have multiple meanings "founding" someone could also be taken to mean "anointing" you are establishing (or founding) them as something. also the verb forms are slightly hence the different translation..

    "There is no such thing as "first of his works" or "founded me" in the text." - really? I can find 10 translations that use "first" 6 that use "First of his works" (1 uses "acts") - Prov 8:25 a lot of translations use "Born" NWT uses "brought forth" - they mean the same thing (i.e Come into existence)
    I can find more if given more time.

    "However, that is not a significant difference, especially since, as it cannot be emphasized enough, the New Testament emphatically describes the Son's origin from the Father exclusively with the verb "begotten" (gennao) or "born" (tikto), which the New Testament never uses for the created world." - of course it doesn't ones a being and ones a thing... you cant really beget a thing (you would know this if you had read the articles I cited)
    would still love an example of someone who is begotten who is never born.. Like I and the cited articles state they are used as parralel

    "even if he used the term "ktizo", you cannot use it in the Arian/JW sense (which is practically: poio), because it turns out that Origen did not interpret it that way" - cite an instance where ktizo is not used to mean literally "created" in some manner or form.. next you will tell me Polycarp was a trinitarian, all these ancient writers writings are either significantly different from the bible or from what trinitarians actually spout.
    of course you will say this... but your evidence remains weak..


  • Blotty
    Blotty

    "IMHO it somewhat indicates a lack of respect, that instead of reading what I wrote, based mainly on my own research, and trying to give a substantial answer yourself, you just link to me a bunch of links that your comrades wrote." - if you want to take it like that sure, but did you read the bit where I said I am also limited on time? I wouldn't care if you threw up a bunch of links if you were limited on time... but then again, I'm also not the one who claims things then cant cite a single bible verse to back up such a claim

    and I don't have much respect for people that omit information or selectively quote.. that include where the WTS have done it, of which I dont think there is a provable case that they have, they didn't do it too Harner or anyone that I am aware of..

    If people want to go and misquote WTS publications to prove a trinity go ahead, there's only one problem -nothing in the WTS writings prove a trinity.

    you twist what you must... try again, to answer a couple

    ""Although Watchtower Society (WTS) research and scholarship is usually at least the equal of (and often superior to) that of other sources..."" - doesn't say anything about "that we were not the advanced Bible scholars" - trinitarians put the qualification bar way to high..

    yeah a BIRTHright... So Jesus was born i.e not in existence at some point, still doesnt negate the "coming into existance" aspect though - pre-eminence doesn't nessicarily mean always in existence, Jesus was before creation, yes - does that negate him being created, no. still waiting on that scriture too..
    My claim: there is NO scripture in the bible, where Firstborn followed by a GENITIVE construction omits the subject from the catergory.

    Firstborn from the dead: Jesus was part of the dead
    etc
    Prime ministers are still a "minister" (Politician) and they were born at some point. I could give more examples but wont


    The other bits Ill ignore for selective quoting.. even your WTS quotations are very selective..

    I don't honestly believe you have tried to engage - Most of these blogs are more than happy to debate with you, Iv seen Edgar Foster debate numerous trinitarians, Iv seen the author of EtT debate trinitarians - I'm sure Greg Stafford would love to debate you..

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    aqwsed12345 : ...it would not hurt you to accept that the authorities I have cited are have also at least, if not of the higher weight, like Philo of Alexandria, Aquila, Theodotion, Symmachus, Jerome.

    If we consider that the great majority of the New Testament quotations from the Old are from the Greek LXX rather than the Hebrew text, it seems absurd to suggest these other translations should have "at least, if not the higher weight". Mark 7:6,7 even has Jesus quoting from the LXX and what greater weight can you get?

    The adoption of the LXX by the Christians as their scriptures naturally engendered suspicion on the part of Jews, especially when the messianic texts were applied to Jesus (e.g. Isaiah 7:14). In addition, the emergence of a single Hebrew text type after the destruction of the Temple made the great differences between it and the LXX increasingly intolerable to Jews, and the need was felt for a Greek translation based upon the current Hebrew text in circulation.

    So, in the second century the versions of Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion were prepared for Greek-speaking Jews, all of which revised the verb used in the LXX at Proverbs 8:22 which Christians (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Clement of Alexandria) were applying to Christ. In the third century Origen edited the LXX on the basis of the Hebrew and retained the verb ἔκτισε (meaning "created") at Proverbs 8:22 despite the alternative renderings in the other Greek versions. So there is good reason to accept the LXX translation as having greater authority for Christians than the alternatives you seem to prefer.

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