Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 136 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    What does Phil 2.6 mean when it says that Jesus was ‘in the form of God’? JWs believe it shows that Jesus was a spirit creature in heaven.

    Paula Fredriksen argues that the word God, in this phrase, is without the article, and should be translated ‘form of [a] god’. She translates the passage as follows:

    Christ Jesus who, though existing in god-form, did not consider divine status [or, ‘being the same as a god’] something to seize upon; but he emptied himself, taking on a slave form, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Because of this, God highly exalted him and gave to him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend—whether of heavenly beings or earthly beings or subterranean beings—and very tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord/Lord Jesus is Christ, to the glory of God the Father.

    She explains:

    Paul distinguishes between degrees of divinity here. Jesus is not “God”. … Jesus had a divine status—which he declined to hold onto. God the Father exalted him. No confusion between degrees of divinity. Paul: The Pagans’ Apostle (2017), 138.

    Although Fredriksen does not see Jesus as an angel in this passage, she argues he was clearly distinguished from almighty God.

    Paul Holloway, in his volume on Philippians for the Hermeneia Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible, performs an in-depth analysis of the linguistic and historical context of the passage. He states that:

    Paul conceived of what is commonly referred to as Christ’s incarnation as a kind of metamorphosis. According to Phil 2:6–11 Christ was a might angel who originally existed “in the form [morphē] of God”. For the sake of humans and in obedience with the divine will he took “the form [morphē] of a slave,” changing himself into human “likeness” (homoioma) and “appearance” (schēma). After his death on a cross, God restored him to his original angelic form, but now as the even more glorious ruling angel who bears the divine Name and shares the divine throne. Philippians: A Commentary (2017), 49, 50.

    Bart Ehrman agreed that, if realise that Paul viewed Jesus as an angel, “then virtually everything Paul says about Christ throughout his letters makes perfect sense”, and “he was a pre-existent divine being, an angel of God, who came to earth out of humble obedience and whom God rewarded by exalting him to an even higher level of divinity as a result.” How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of Jewish Preacher from Galilee (2014), 253, 258.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    "What does Phil 2.6 mean when it says that Jesus was ‘in the form of God’? JWs believe it shows that Jesus was a spirit creature in heaven."

    This interpretation fails because if "being in the form of God" did not mean nothing more than existing as a spirit, then this would have no special emphasis, and this could be said about any angel.

    Somehow the Scriptures never say that angels exist "in the form of God", so you can't equate it with that.

    And from the continuation it becomes clear that he was in equality with God, but he did not insist, cling on staying in it, so he undertook his self-emptying.

    That is why an accurate Bible translation would be important, and it is clear how much the second half of Philippians 2:6 was distorted by the Arians. Wulila distorted the meaning of "isa", JWs did it with "harpagmos".

    Why don't you forget these skeptical scholars and read early Christian writers directly?

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    So what is the true meaning of Philippians 2:6-11 then?

    Jesus Christ, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be seized violently (in equality with God); or the latter words could also be understood as: he did not consider it a thing to which he had to cling at all costs. Since the corresponding Greek (harpagmos) word is used only here by Paul in the Scriptures, there is no other way to determine its meaning than to consider the context in the text. However, since the apostle says later that Jesus Christ exchanged his existence similar to God for existence similar to humans, and took on a human form, it seems more probable that Jesus Christ did not cling at all costs to equality with God, but became similar to us, humans.

    Jesus Christ was "in the form of God": the Son, the second divine person, was in divine glory and majesty according to his divine essence and nature. Before the incarnation, his form, or mode of existence, was the glorious and majestic divine existence. The term 'morphe' indicates the mode of appearance or existence, from which the essential property or state of a thing can be known. What is asserted here about Christ is that He possessed existence in a divine manner from eternety. The expression 'en morphe theu' in Genesis 1:26-27 reminds us of the description of human dignity, but the LXX usage (kat’ eikona theu) differs from this.

    "Equality with God": the Son was essentially equal to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and before the incarnation, in the manifestation of divine glory and majesty. Which He should grasp as booty, robbery: The rare word 'harpagmos' elsewhere only appears in the active sense of "robbery," which loses its meaning in this context. Based on its analogy with the more common 'harpagma', expressing consciousness, a passive interpretation is suggested, both in the sense of being seized by something (res rapta), and in the sense of being seized by something (res rapienda). The text context really requires the first meaning, to seize something and cling to it (res rapta et retinenda). The latter (res rapienda) is favored by those who see Christ's divine behavior as opposed to Adam's. But what did Christ have to seize, if He already existed "in the form of God"?

    Therefore, Paul writes to the Philippians that you should have the same self-denying, humbling love as Christ's. Although he possessed a divine nature and reality, and it would not have been presumptuous to regard divine attributes as his own: he stripped himself of this infinite majesty, and taking on human nature, became completely similar to humans, except for sin, and appeared externally only as a human. Others interpret it this way: He was indeed in possession of his divine nature, but did not want to boast with it, to show it off as his spoils in the triumphal procession of the victor: but he hid it, etc. He renounced the latter, the appearance in divine glory and majesty, stripped himself of it, or as the apostle says: he emptied himself when he took on the form of a servant and became like humans. He already was truly, properly, and essentially God from eternity, and by taking the form of a servant, became truly a man, and as man the servant of God, but remaining always God as before.

    The apostle does not simply say that Christ became human, because he wants to express that great difference that exists between the second divine person who became human and the rest of humans: He was not just what his appearance showed, but God too. In appearance, he appeared as a human: according to the Greek text, this sentence should be connected to the next one, as follows: When he appeared in appearance as a human, he humbled himself.

    "He emptied Himself": This phrase contributed to the development of "kenotic" Christologies, but here it is likely used metaphorically, fitting into Paul's usage of the same verb (kenun) in its passive form, meaning "to render powerless, ineffective" (cf. Romans 4:14). So it would mean that Christ made Himself powerless - precisely as powerless as a slave. He took the form of a servant: According to the hymn's conception (cf. Galatians 4:1-11; 4:21–5:1; Romans 8:15), un-redeemed human existence is essentially that of a slave, a captive of spiritual forces, captivity ended by death. Some translate 'dulos' here as "servant" rather than "slave," thus finding a reference in the previous expression to the servant in Isaiah 53:12 ("He poured out His soul [= Himself] unto death"). Although this is linguistically acceptable, it rather disrupts the sequence of preceding thoughts than continuing the reference to the subsequent section on becoming human; and it also nullifies the contrast that the hymn seems to establish between the extremes of dominion (1:9-11) and slavery. He became like men: 'Homoióma' can mean both "identical copy" and "(mere) similarity." Here, probably the former was intended, thus highlighting the paradox that arises as a result of the divine and thus immortal Someone taking on a full human existence, with death as its destiny. The clear implication of this and the following expression, i.e., that the divine Someone "assumed" the human condition "from the outside," creates great difficulties for those who view the hymn as considering only Christ's earthly existence.

    "He appeared as a man": The language ('heurétheis', "to be found, experienced", 'schema', "form") emphasizes the way He now appeared in the eyes of God and human beings; that is, simply as a man. 8. He humbled Himself: Christ's selfless behavior, evident in the original decision to take on the servile, mortal human condition, continued throughout His human history. He became obedient unto death: Throughout His life, Christ lived out the demands of human existence imposed by God. Death was not simply the final point of His obedience, but also the undeniable consequence of being fully human and perfectly so in a world alienated from God. Yes, even death on a cross: Crucifixion, the method of execution reserved for slaves and those who had lost all their civil rights, marks the extreme of human humiliation.

    So during His earthly life, He renounced the glory due to the Son of God, even taking on the struggles of earthly life and death. His self-emptying was a prerequisite for sacrifice and merit earning. The incarnation was an emptying of himself for Christ living in divine glory, a renunciation of the divine glory to which he had a right by nature. A further manifestation of his humility was then that as a human he took on a servile fate and the death of a slave, renounced his own will, became obedient with such devotion and fidelity, which was crowned by death on the cross. His obedience brought greater honor to the Father than what sin had denied Him. His glorification is that, in His resurrection and ascension, He assumed the power and glory due to the Son of God, and as the God-man, He is the object of our worship.

    "He exalted": he raised, placed very high. - He gave him a name that is above every other name: a name whose meaning, content, and power surpass all other names. Which this name is, the apostle tells in the following verse. He exalted him also according to his holy humanity, a name (=dignity) that is above all dignities. As God, he could not be exalted higher. God found Christ's self-denying act to be fitting with His active response. His obedience was "rewarded," but not in a way that would force God's hand; rather, it is God who initiated in His faithfulness to protect, to "vindicate" the one who so completely submitted himself to divine disposition. Beyond the exaltation of the righteous, Christ was also given a unique position of dominion over the entire universe. There is no mention of the resurrection; the hymn moves in different categories of contrasts: humiliation/exaltation; servitude/dominion.

    "He gave Him the name": Christ's selflessness validated the glorious grace of God, which operates in its fullness where human understanding does not capture it. The name…which is above every name: the name is obviously Kyrios “Lord,” which substituted the unutterable YHWH in the Christian translations of the LXX. If God Himself “gave Him” the name Kyrios according to his humanity too, Jesus wore it without sacrificing authentic monotheism.

    "At the name of Jesus": Paul does not say: at the name of the Son of God, or: at the name of Christ, but names the name that the Son of God bore during his earthly life. The current mention of "Jesus" indissolubly includes the title and the universal authority of the Lord.

    "Every knee should bow": Referring to Isaiah 45:23, the hymn attributes to the exalted Christ the universal, eschatological adoration that there is due to God alone (cf. Romans 14:11). In heaven and on earth and under the earth: The tripartite division emphasizes the universality of the adoration. And that Jesus Christ is Lord: The climax of the hymn incorporates an early Christian confession of faith (see 1 Corinthians 12:3; Romans 10:9). He, who in selfless obedience took on the weakness of a slave, now carries universal dominion by divine commission and inauguration (1 Corinthians 3:21-23; Romans 14:9). According to Isaiah, YHWH God claims the honor only for himself, that every knee should bow before him, and every tongue confess him. Paul demands this homage for the glorified God-man, to whom the Father God has given that name, which is due the honor that befits God, and this name is: the name of the Lord. The early Christianity called the resurrected Messiah, sitting at the right hand of God, by this name (1Cor 12:3, Acts 2:36, etc.) and confessed Christ's divinity with this name. To the glory of God the Father: just as the whole work of Jesus as Redeemer, so also the worship of the redeemed ultimately serves the glory of all of our Father, the Father God.

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    (Article by Juan Baixeras below on Philippians 2:5-9, for whatever it's worth)

    Philippians 2:5-9

    by Juan Baixeras

    This verse has been used to try and prove the Trinity and the preexistence of Christ. The argument is that according to the verse, Jesus did not consider it robbery to be equal with God. The second argument is that Jesus being God, emptied himself of his divinity when he came as Jesus. We will look at both of these claims and in the process we will give you what I believe to be the correct interpretation of this verse.

    Let me start by saying that this verse is probably the most written about verse in the Bible. It has been the topic of many a Bible scholar, and certain interpretations of this verse have caused quite a commotion.

    Before starting let me state the best way to understand these verses. This hymn is best understood within the framework of Adam Christology (James Dunn, Christology in the Making pg. 114-115). Though the hymn is obviously about Christ, it defines him against the background of Adam’s failure. The hymn presupposes Adam’s fateful choice, his desire to "be like God," (Gen. 3:5), his failure, and his downfall. Jesus is the second Adam. Where the first Adam failed, the second Adam is victorious. Where the first Adam sought his own interests, the second Adam remained obedient to the point of death.

    This Adam Christology is a feature of Paul’s writings (Rom.5:12 – 21, 1Cor. 15: 20 – 28) and of early Christianity. For example, the temptation stories in Mathew and Luke have in their background the temptation of Adam in Genesis. Luke traces the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam. Adam’s ancestry is listed as the "son of God." It is interesting that Luke’s genealogy of Jesus, ending with Adam, is immediately followed with the temptation story. For the early church, the significance of Jesus was understood, at least in part, in light of the downfall of Adam. (Scott A. Deane, MATS, Philippians 2:6-11, Radical Reformation Vol.7 No.1, 1997)

    As in any exegesis of any verse, one must always interpret it in the context in which it was written. So at this time please open your Bible and read from verse 1 – 12. First we are going to cover the context and then the point of this hymn, and then we will do a line by line exegesis.

    Let’s review the context first. In verse 1-2 Paul is telling the Philippians to be of the same mind, to show the same love. In verse 3 he tells them not to do anything out of selfishness or vainglory, but to be humble. He tells them to regard OTHERS as more important than themselves. To consider other’s interests as more important than their own. All this is happening during a time of persecution.

    Then in verses 5-8 he uses the life of Christ as an example of what he is speaking about. He tells them to have the same attitude as Christ.

    The point of the hymn in this context is that suffering, humility, and obedience to God for the faith leads ultimately to exaltation.

    Now that we have covered the context in verses 1-5, we are ready for the first controversy in verse 6. There are two different interpretations. The first is from the KJV, it states:

    "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

    The majority of Bibles including the NAB, NASB, NRSV, NIV, and The Amplified Bible, just to name a few, interpret it as:

    "Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped."

    First let us get an understanding of the phrase "Who being in the form of God." The key being the word "form."

    The word form (morphe) and image (eikon) are interchangeable. R.P. Martin ("Morphe in Philippians 2:6," Expository Times, Vol. 70, no.6, March 1959, 183-184) states:

    "That morphe and eikon are equivalent terms that are used interchangeably in the LXX."

    James Dunn states in Christology in the Making pg.115:

    "It has long been recognized that morphe and eikon are near synonyms."

    An understanding of image will help us in the understanding of form. Let us look at their definitions. According to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means:

    Form (morphe) – nature. Comes from the base of the word meros that means to have an allotment, a division or share, piece, portion.

    Image (eikon) – likeness, or figuratively a representation.

    Being in the form or image of something means that it is not the original. If I have something that is in the form or image of a lion, then it is not really a lion. If it was, I would not have to say that it was in the form or image of a lion, I would just say that it is a lion.

    Man was made in the image of God. God made man as a representation of himself. Someone he could share a piece of himself (having the spirit of God in us) with.

    Gen.1:27"God created man in his image."

    1 Cor. 11:7"Because he (man) is the image and glory of God."

    These verses do not mean that because we are the image of God that we are God. It means that God made us with his attributes. We have the ability to think (do his will) and to love like God.

    These next two verses do not mean that Jesus is God in the same way that the verses above do not mean that man is God. They mean that Jesus is the image of God because as God’s anointed he does the will of God and loved us (as God does) enough to die for us. Jesus and God’s purpose are one and the same. Our purpose should be the same as Christ’s. This is what Paul is telling the Philippians in verse 5, to have the same attitude (the image) as Christ.

    2 Cor. 4:4"Christ who is the image of God."

    Colossians 1:1"He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God."

    When we are reborn or renewed we then bear the image of Christ and of God (because they are one in purpose) because we put away the old self and put on the new self which now does the will of God.

    Colossians 3:10 says it clearly:

    "Stop lying to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed, for knowledge, in the image of its creator."

    This next verse is also a good example. The disobedient are said to have a form of godliness. It doesn’t mean that they are God, in this verse it means that they pretend to be like God (righteous), but in reality are not.

    2 Tim. 3:5"Having a form (the disobedient) of godliness but denying its power."

    The KJV basically says that Jesus did not think anything wrong of being considered equal with God. This is contrary to the Adam Christology that is being applied and in total contradiction to the context of this chapter which is humility, selflessness, to be a slave of, not to be equal with, especially with God.

    Now let’s see how this understanding of the word "form" fits in this passage. Let us look at both verses again.

    "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

    "Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped."

    Let us review the context of this chapter. It is about being humble. It is about putting others ahead of oneself. Of making others more important than oneself like Christ did. Christ put God’s interests (God’s will) and ours ahead of himself just like we should put other’s interests ahead of our own.

    The KJV interpretation of verse 6 goes completely contrary to that idea. It does not convey humility, it states the opposite, grandeur. It says that although Jesus was like, or represented God, that he did not think that there was anything wrong in being considered equal to God. It is basically hypocritical.

    The other Bible interpretations are in line with the context of the chapter. Their sense is determined by their role within Adam Christology.

    The conclusion to these verses is that Jesus is the second Adam created in the image of God as Adam was. As Adam, Jesus is in esteemed position, they are both called "son of God." Like Adam, Jesus was faced with a choice: seek his own interests or God’s; obey or rebel.

    Adam’s temptation was that he wanted to be like God (Gen. 3:5). Adam sought to grasp (the NRSV has grasp as, "something to be exploited") equality with God. But Jesus in contrast to Adam’s selfish choice did not seek to usurp God’s authority but instead took the position of a slave to God and obeyed him to the point of death.

    Now on to verse 7-9. It says:

    "Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness, and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him."

    Let me start with the phrase "he emptied himself." Many people use this verse in defense of the Trinity when confronted with questions such as

    "If Jesus is omniscient then how come he does not know the day of his return?

    Their answer is that Jesus doesn’t know that because he emptied himself of His divinity when he came as Jesus.

    This idea has an actual name. It is called the Kenotic Doctrine. Before going on, let me show you the Creed of the Council of Chalcedon, which is the definition of Jesus which all good Trinitarians adhere to, Catholic and Protestant.

    Definition of the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD)

    Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

    The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both.

    In 1951, in celebration of the 1500th birthday of the Chalcedon Creed, Pope Pius the 12th wrote the following on the Kenotic Doctrine:

    Encyclical of Pope Pius the 12th
    on the Council of Chalcedon September 8, 1951
    (paragraph 29).

    There is another enemy of the faith of Chalcedon, widely diffused outside the fold of the Catholic religion. This is an opinion for which a rashly and falsely understood sentence of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Philippians (2:7), supplies a basis and a shape. This is called the kenotic doctrine, and according to it, they imagine that the divinity was taken away from the Word in Christ. It is a wicked invention, equally to be condemned with the Docetism opposed to it. It reduces the whole mystery of the Incarnation and Redemption to empty the bloodless imaginations.

    So what does he emptied himself mean? It means that Jesus being in an esteemed position (The Messiah, the king of Israel, Jn 1:41 & 49) emptied himself of all the rights, power and privilege that were his and instead humbled himself like a slave to the will of God.

    The Amplified Bible states Verse 7 as:

    "But stripped (emptied) himself of all privilege and rightful dignity so as to assume the guise of a servant."

    Remember, Jesus was and is the Messiah, the right hand of God. And as God’s right hand he is anointed with incredible power. But he chose not to use this power but instead yielded to the will of God to the point of death. An example that comes to mind is when Jesus is about to be arrested. It states:

    Matthew 26:53"Do you think that I cannot call upon my Father and he will not provide me at this moment with more than twelve legions of angels?"

    He could have summoned them, but he didn’t. He could have used his esteemed position to call for angels to protect him, but he chose to empty himself of his right and privilege in obedience to God. Now let us look at the remaining verses.

    2:7: "Coming in human likeness, and found human in appearance."

    People have really gone overboard with this verse. They will say that since in the previous verse God emptied himself of his divinity, that then he appeared as a human, Jesus.

    How this fits in a context of living a life of humility and obedience is beyond me. It just doesn’t.

    The NAB which is a Catholic Bible that believes in the preexistence of Christ has this to say about verse 7:

    2:7: "It is also possible to interpret so as to exclude any reference to preexistence and to take vv 6-8 as parallel stanzas about Jesus’ human state."

    Let’s first review what the word translated as "likeness" (eidos) means. Its literal translation is "fashion." Let’s see what Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has to say about this word and its usage in this verse.

    Fashion (eidos) – "In general the state and relations of a human being, so that in the entire mode of his appearance he made himself known and was recognized as a man."

    In the simplest of terms, this definition states that Jesus was just like us. Paul speaks of the same thing in Hebrew 2:17-18, it states:

    "Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in all things, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propiations for the sins of the people. For since he himself was tempted in that which he has suffered, he is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted."

    All verse 7 is saying is that Jesus refused to use his esteemed position for his own interests, instead, even though he was human like the rest of us, he resisted the temptation to follow his own desires and chose to follow the will of God, to obey God to his death.

    This fits in with Paul’s Adam – Jesus comparison. The first Adam was tempted and failed. The second Adam was tempted and was victorious.

    "Just like sin and death entered the world though a man named Adam, eternal life was also brought to us through another man named Jesus (paraphrasing Romans 5:12 – 21).

    Now we end our exegesis with verse 9. Paul is using Jesus as an example of how to live. Jesus was tempted and he suffered, but he obeyed even when it cost him his life. Because of his obedience God has greatly exalted him. This is the message that Paul is conveying to the Philippians. Be like Christ, follow his example. He was human just like us, which means that it is humanly possible for us to live a life of obedience to God if we set our minds to it. And just like he has been rewarded, so will you. You too will be exalted ( resurrected).

    This chapter along with the episode of the temptation of Christ in the gospels makes no sense if Jesus is a Godman. It makes no sense for Paul to urge on the Philippians to imitate Christ if Christ is a Godman. How can they, they are not Godmen.

    The temptation of Christ and Philippians 2 both give us encouragement that sin can be overcome even in this age if we follow God’s will instead of our own as Jesus did. Jesus although he was the Messiah was human just like us, and he proved to the world that it is possible to follow the will of God if we choose to. And if we do, then we too will be exalted by God.

    Conclusion

    Philippians 2: 5-9 has nothing to do with Christ being God or his preexistence. Those interpretations are the work of people with preconceived ideas trying to find any verse in the Bible to substantiate their claims.

    In reality these verses are very simple. They are very practical verses written to the Philippians on how they are to conduct themselves in this world. How are we to conduct ourselves? Not by imitating Adam who lost everything by his attempted grab for power (his own desires), but by imitating Christ who through his humility and obedience to God (God’s will) gained it all.

    God bless you.

    This page copyright © 2000 by Juan Baixeras

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Wonderment

    "The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both.""

    Completely false:

    The kenosis doesn't mean "putting down" the deity, but taking up the humanity. He did not empty himself of the deity (which is impossible), it means He did not cling to His heavenly glory, but emptied Himself and took on the form of a servant. The eternal existence of the Son and His incarnation are contrasted in a similar way in John 1:14 and Galatians 4:4. Philippians 2:5-10 praises the Son's willingness to sacrifice and His love, with which He embraced the humble human fate and the work of redemption. The text refers to Jesus' three modes of existence: His eternal pre-existence, His earthly life, and His glorification according to his humanity after the resurrection. He did not regard possession of divine glory as something to be clung to as spoils, but He emptied Himself. It cannot not be understood as a renunciation of His deity, but rather that when He took on human nature, he retained His deity, but sought what belongs to true earthly humanity, the form of a servant, and not the glory as the divine person, but he was still fully God, while "hiding" his rank on earth, in the state of self-emptying. His behavior expresses humility, and He continued this throughout His earthly life: He was obedient to the point of death on the cross. He became like us in all things (Romans 8:3), for only in this way could He live a meritorious life, and only in this way could He represent us in His sacrifice. We apply kenosis to the person of the Son, insofar as He accepted the incarnation, but we also apply it to the earthly life of Christ, insofar as He went to the ultimate limit of renunciation. The completeness of kenosis was the acceptance of death. Paul mentions obedience to the point of death to highlight the complete acceptance of the servant's position.

    Whoever wrote this article clearly does not understand the theology he wants to criticize. If you want to attack a teaching, first you're supposed to understand it.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    Hebrews 1 is proving Jesus is superior to the Angels - If he is understood to be God what is the point in proving that? everyone knows (and knew) God was superior to the angels... If Jesus is God, this pointless if your comments are true

    regarding "image" if we apply that argument then everything called an image of something is part of that original thing.. "image" isnt a rank that's obvious from its usage

    "Christ is the creator" - never has this applied to him, and in fact says it was his father on multiple occasions

    "impossible to drop divinity" - then why is he called a "man" so often? even in his "divine" status he said he died (if you want to go by the 2 nature argument)

    from my speed reading:

    Col 1:15: you ignore the fact that in a genitive construction with Firstborn, the person is always part of the group, see other examples in the NT
    infact you ignore alot of facts - you very much misunderstand the WT and its phrasing..
    the scripture does not have to say "first created" for Jesus to be Gods literal firstborn

    Rev 3:14: So the LXX parallel should be interpreted the same? Johns usage is the defining factor - try a dictionary.

    John 20:28:

    1. How does "God" have a "God"? the son is never called the Fathers God..

    2. you ignored most of my point..

    3. ho theos is not always applied to God - its applied to Satan (2 Corin 4:4 and your belly)


    Prov 8:
    you need to find more accurate sources, I can crush most of that.. Edgar foster has made a few comments


    " 'God is with them' (Immanuel)." I could give lists of names that mean similar are they God aswell?

    " then this is equivalent to the fact that there was no such time when he did not exist." - if this comment were true then the word "born" or "begotten" would never have been used as you yourself state John 1:1 is an allusion back to Genesis 1:1 where the angels are never stated to be created either yet we know they exist because of the verse in Job


    you take the scriptures out of their context

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Blotty

    By the way have you checked Jn 5:23?

    "Hebrews 1 is proving Jesus is superior to the Angels - If he is understood to be God what is the point in proving that?"

    It's not needed to be "proven", the apostle is explaining, thus revealing this truth. That's what revelation is: God teaching the mankind by revealing what cannot be known by their own reason.

    "regarding "image" if we apply that argument then everything called an image of something is part of that original thing.. "image" isnt a rank that's obvious from its usage"

    Eikon not "part" or "rank", but a perfect reflection of the original. If the Son is just an angel, it would be like someone looking in a mirror and seeing a dog instead of a human.

    ""Christ is the creator" - never has this applied to him, and in fact says it was his father on multiple occasions"

    Check for example Hebrews 1:10. And since the Old Testament Bible verses I quoted earlier claim that God YHWH created "alone", this precludes him from using a secondary co-creator, an angel. It is written in many other places that the Father created the world "through" and "in" the Son, including the "aions", thus including time.

    ""impossible to drop divinity" - then why is he called a "man" so often? even in his "divine" status he said he died (if you want to go by the 2 nature argument)"

    Because with the incarnation He also took on the human nature, alongside the divine. The Son became man without ceasing to be God. The incarnate Son of God, that is, Jesus Christ, is both God and man, perfect God and perfect man. In Jesus Christ, who is both God and man, there are two natures, the divine and the human.

    So all the attributes that are human became true of him, by continuing to be true of God. So the Scriptures can say that Jesus is a man, thus mortal, and in that sense a creature who has a God.

    "you ignore the fact that in a genitive construction with Firstborn, the person is always part of the group, see other examples in the NT"

    First: nope, there is a construction to classify the group mentioned after, like "firstborn among many brothers" (en pollois adelphois, Romans 8:29). And in the OT the nation of Israel is called "my firstborn" (Exodus 4:22), and according to Numbers 23:9, Israel shall not be counted among the nations. In the Talmud the Jews also call YHWH as Bekorah, which means the same: Firstborn. The Firstborn is the title of the Son here, meaning pre-eminent heir. This is also acknowledged fact in WTS publications. For example "the firstborn of the dead" (Rev 1:5) doesn't mean He is the first person ever died - obviously He wasn't. "Firstborn" is like saying a title, like "king". Someone being a king of a country, doesn't mean he is a country himself. Colossians 1:15 simply means that He owns, enjoys the position of the Heir, the ruler in relation to the whole of creation. The direct continuation clearly explains this when he adds: because in him all things were created, not "all other" as the NWT falsifies it. This interpretation would not even be contrary to WTS theology, only then would the "one-liner" "proof verse" fail.

    "the scripture does not have to say "first created" for Jesus to be Gods literal firstborn"

    It wouldn't hurt if the Scriptures said this openly, especially if the WTS claims that its teachings are "completely obvious" in the Bible, and as we can see, precisely their basic teachings are not openly stated in it. Especially since the opposite (born/begotten), also mentioned in the Nicene Creed, is openly included in the Bible.

    So if one claims the Bible obviously teaches that the Son is a creature, the first created being, then yes, this should be clearly stated. Otherwise, it is rather hypocritical to mock why the term "Trinity" is not included. Why, where is "He is a creature" or "He is Michael"?

    This is a problem, with all denominations based on the principle of "sola Scriptura", they start from the premise that it is enough if an honest, open-hearted person sits down and reads the Bible, and God's message will be "clear". If this were so, hundreds of thousands of Christian denominations would not have been created since Luther invented this principle. And as we can see, according to the WTS, this is not enough either, the direction by FDS is also needed.

    "Rev 3:14: So the LXX parallel should be interpreted the same?"

    Yep, if you want to understand what "arche" meant for John there, it wouldn't hurt to check how it was used in the given cultural-linguistical context, instead of focusing what impression the English word "beginning" makes on you. 'Arche' is a word with quite a wide range of meanings, and nuances, which in the Greek language meant the principle from which creation starts, the universe pours out, and this concept was used up by John there. And rightly so, He is indeed the THE "arche" of the creation, since "through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (John 1:3). By the way, the Holy Scriptures also call the Father "arche", so...

    "How does "God" have a "God"? the son is never called the Fathers God.."

    So that the Son became incarnate and became a man, but the Father did not. If it had been the other way around, then the Father would have called the Son his God.

    "ho theos is not always applied to God - its applied to Satan (2 Corin 4:4 and your belly)"

    This is self-explanatory: the New Testament uses the word "god" in only two senses: 1. for the true God, 2. for the false gods, that is, for the idols of the pagan peoples, and then for Satan. JWs refer to Psalm 82, but apart from that Psalm, this usage is not at all characteristic of the Bible, especially the New Testament. Even Jesus, when he refers to this, from John 10:34-35 it is clear that his not in the same sense "god" at the judges in Psalm 82, but in a superior way: IF it could be said about them (in some sense), THEN how much more about me, who is only-begotten Son, thus in a superior sense to them? You can see here a classic Jewish way of reasoning, called Kal va-chomer (קל וחומר), thus argumentum a fortiori. Furthermore, the existence of a minor god, demigod, co-creator angel is ruled out by the specific biblical statements in the Old Testament, according to which YHWH God created the world "alone", so who was with him? (cf. Isaiah 44:24)

    "you need to find more accurate sources, I can crush most of that.. Edgar foster has made a few comments"

    I did. Just compare how the Book of Proverbs uses the very same verb (qanah). Furthermore, the WTS also admits that it is not literally the Son, but the divine Wisdom, a female form of personification. Since when is the Son feminine? After all, we cannot even talk about a literal gender before his Incarnation, and the Holy Scriptures always refer to spirits, the Father, the Son, and the angels in the male form. Only the Holy Spirit is referred sometimes as feminine. Also: since when do we prove key doctrine from the Ketuvim, the wisdom literature?

    "" 'God is with them' (Immanuel)." I could give lists of names that mean similar are they God aswell?"

    And who said He was the only one called that? Jesus' name was a completely ordinary name in that age, like John or Carl today. Jesus's name (Yeshua) means "YHWH is salvation", of course not all people called Yeshua are savior, but it's no coincidence that the saviour is called Yeshua. This is absolutely not a primary argument, but according to the rules of typology, it is indicated that in the case of Jesus, his names, titles, etc. they are also realized in a special way.

    "if this comment were true then the word "born" or "begotten" would never have been used as you yourself state John 1:1 is an allusion back to Genesis 1:1 where the angels are never stated to be created either yet we know they exist because of the verse in Job"

    The argument was that he is the only one of whom the Scripture says that the Father BEGOT, GAVE BITRH to the Son (that's why only-begotten), unlike to all the creatures, about whom it never says that they were begotten, born from the Father, but always says that they created, made. The contrast is clear. John 1:1a clearly it refers to the absolute beginning, when the Son, the Logos already "was", existed, thus He existed from the beginning, in contrast with the creatures, who were created. And according to Hebrews 1:2, even the "ages" (aions), thus the time, the temporality is made through the Son. And if the Son already existed "in the beginning", even before the aions were created, then there was no such time when He did not exist, for He already existed when the aions created. It means exactly the same thing: that he has no beginning in time, so he has existed from eternity. And only God can be eternal, so he must be God.

    So, what's wrong the the Nicene formula?

    • "begotten of the Father before all ages (æons)", "begotten, not made"
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    "Let the interpreter then, with all care and without neglecting any light derived from recent research, endeavor to determine the peculiar character and circumstances of the sacred writer, the age in which he lived, the sources written or oral to which he had recourse and the forms of expression he employed. Thus can he the better understand who was the inspired author, and what he wishes to express by his writings. There is no one indeed but knows that the supreme rule of interpretation is to discover and define what the writer intended to express...

    What is the literal sense of a passage is not always as obvious in the speeches and writings of the ancient authors of the East, as it is in the works of our own time. ... For the ancient peoples of the East, in order to express their ideas, did not always employ those forms or kinds of speech which we use today; but rather those used by the men of their times and countries. What those exactly were the commentator cannot determine as it were in advance, but only after a careful examination of the ancient literature of the East. ...

    The same inquiry has also shown the special preeminence of the people of Israel among all the other ancient nations of the East in their mode of compiling history, both by reason of its antiquity and by reasons of the faithful record of the events; qualities which may well be attributed to the gift of divine inspiration and to the peculiar religious purpose of biblical history.

    Nevertheless no one, who has a correct idea of biblical inspiration, will be surprised to find, even in the Sacred Writers, as in other ancient authors, certain fixed ways of expounding and narrating, certain definite idioms, especially of a kind peculiar to the Semitic tongues, so-called approximations, and certain hyperbolical modes of expression, nay, at times, even paradoxical, which even help to impress the ideas more deeply on the mind. For of the modes of expression which, among ancient peoples, and especially those of the East, human language used to express its thought, none is excluded from the Sacred Books, provided the way of speaking adopted in no wise contradicts the holiness and truth of God, as, with his customary wisdom, the Angelic Doctor [Thomas Aquinas] already observed in these words: "In Scripture divine things are presented to us in the manner which is in common use amongst men.""

    (Pope Pius XII - Divino Afflante Spiritu)

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I wonder, doesn’t it give you any pause for thought that scholars who are not tied to any theological position tend to interpret NT Christology in a way that is closer to JW understanding than Trinitarian dogma?

    As it is, you have Trinitarian scholars who generally argue that the Bible at least doesn’t fundamentally contradict Trinitarian dogma. If JWs quote those scholars on particular points where they agree with JWs, you say that’s illegitimate because those scholars don’t agree with JWs overall.

    If JWs quote non-Trinitarians to make a point then you say that’s illegitimate because of course non-Trinitarians are going to agree with JWs.

    And if JWs quote liberal scholars, who don’t have a faith commitment, you say that’s illegitimate because of course liberal scholars say the Trinity developed after the Bible, that’s because they are non believers.

    So ultimately JWs can’t quote anyone, whether they agree with them on a particular point or not, none of it should be considered.

    In reality the conclusions of liberal scholars are interesting because they are not committed to a particular theological outcome. When they say that the NT says that Jesus was God’s first creation and a powerful angel that’s because their historical work has led them to that conclusion. Practically every scholar I can think of who has examined the NT without a prior commitment to the Trinity has concluded that the Trinity developed after the NT was written, and that Jesus is distinct and subordinate to God in the NT, because that’s what a plain reading of the texts suggests.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    "scholars who are not tied to any theological position tend to interpret NT Christology"

    Your last source (Paula Fredriksen) is not even Christian, but Jewish. Of course, non-Christian and/or non-believing authors will say that Christianity is a hoax, the Church is corrupted, Jesus didn't even exist, or even if he did, he wasn't quite what they "later" believed him to be, blah blah blah. There are tons of such literature, the sad thing is that you rely on them. At the same time, you probably wouldn't identify with his conclusions, but instead you brandish one excerpted quote as a weapon. These athors are not ideologically "neutral" (there is no such thing a priori), but represent an ideology themselves, and they articulate this in their in their works.

    For example, some JW apologist, I've debated with, also refered to Bart D. Ehrman, who is focusing to prove that the whole NT, and Christianity is a later invention, and also JWs cannot agree with him on most of his consluson.

    Of course, it's not "forbidden" to quote anyone, it's just a bit transparent what the game is about. For example, read what the Jewish encyclopedias write about Paul. Do you identify with what was written there? Of course not, but this is such a typical WTS propaganda tactic that if they find something "yummy" detail there, they pick it out and show that "do you see how serious scholars said this?! If you don't accept it, then you are against "the science!"

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