Why is he spiritual Israel not innumerable?

by Salomo 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Salomo

    Please share this Question

    Why is he spiritual Israel not innumerable?

    The literal seed of Abraham was innumerable (Heb 11:12; Gen 22:17; 1Ki 4:20).

    But according the current understanding of JW the spiritual seed of Abrahams is exactly counted and with a number of 144,000 much less than the literal old Israel (Rom 9:7; Gal 3:29). This would mean, the prophecy would be unfulfilled by the spiritual Israel. And the olive tree would have far less branches than before (Rom 11:17-19,25-26).

    There is only one innumerable group, the great crowd of Revelation 7. Only with the great crowd the seed of Abraham would be innumerable.

    There is some evidence for it:

    *** w08 1/15 p. 25 par. 3 Counted Worthy to Be Guided to Fountains of Waters of Life ***

    With that in mind, they have “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Rev. 7:14, 17) They exercise faith in Jesus’ sacrifice, and thus in God’s eyes they have ‘white robes.’ They are declared righteous as friends of God, like Abraham.

    They have a faith like Abraham, why are they not his spiritual children? (Rom 4:16-17; Gal 3:29)

    *** w02 5/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***

    It is reasonable to say that the great crowd worships Jehovah in one of the earthly courtyards of his great spiritual temple, specifically the one that corresponds with the outer courtyard of Solomon’s temple.

    In this courtyard stood mainly Israelites and some circumcised proselytes, which were all in the old Mosaic covenant. Why the members of the great crowd as an antitype, are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant?

    *** w10 3/15 p. 25 par. 8 One Flock, One Shepherd ***

    This relationship between the 144,000 and the rest of mankind was foreshadowed in the events of the annual Atonement Day. (Lev. 16:6-10) The high priest was required, first of all, to sacrifice a bull as a sin offering “in behalf of himself and his house.” Thus, Jesus’ sacrifice is applied first to his household of underpriests, those who will serve with him in heaven. Also on the ancient Atonement Day, two goats were provided for the sins of the other Israelites. In this setting, where the priestly tribe pictures the 144,000, the rest of Israel pictures all those with an earthly hope. This application shows that the term “the twelve tribes of Israel” at Matthew 19:28 refers, not to Jesus’ spirit-begotten underpriests, but to all others who put faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.

    The great crowd belongs to those, which are foreshadowed by the 12 tribes at the Atonement Day. But why they are not spiritual Israelites?

    The 144,000 are only firstfruits. Why, in contrary to the old covenant, should the new covenant only produce firstfruits and not the great rest of the people, which inherit the land? (Num 3:12-13; 18:20; De 10:9; Mat 25:34).

    And why could someone not be in the new covenant, although he has washed his robe in the blood of this covenant? (Rev 7:14; Mat 26:28; Heb 9:11-14)

    The earthly hope was not really revealed before the Revelation (1Cor 13:9-10). In the first Century 1Pe 2:9 was fully true for all, which were in the new covenant, because at this time, there was only the heavenly hope. But today we may have a different view of this matter. And Peter referring to the promise found at Ex 19:5-6. This promise may have a first fulfillment (w95 7/1 p. 16 par. 8). And then not all members of the new covenant have to be priests in heaven.

  • Salomo

    Oops, I forgot a "t" in the question

    Why is the spiritual Israel not innumerable?

    I hope this question will spread und will change things.

  • Listener

    they claim that they are willing to correct their mistakes with new light, there is only so far that they will go.

    Changing doctrine to make the other sheep/great crowd Spiritual Israelites would cause too many issues that they would not know how to deal with, without losing a lot of members.

    For instance, they would have to partake of the emblems and for decades they have been warned by the Watchtower that they are not worthy.

    Overall, it would mean that they other sheep has never worshipped Jehovah correctly. They are currently only Gods friends, not his sons and daughters.

  • Vanderhoven7

    Why do you believe that the 144,000 and the great crowd are not the same group?

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    The WTS separated the 144,000 from the Great Crowd since at least as early as 1931, when Rutherford introduced the term "Jehovah's witnesses" (lower case "w"), he applied the term solely to the 144,000. The "other sheep" went by different names, such as "Jonadabs".

    So he would have made a clear differentiation.

    It was not until after his death in 1942, that the WTS extended the term "Jehovah's Witnesses" to the remainder.

    Of course, if the number 144,00 is to be taken literally, then the number 12,000 from each of the named 12 Jewish clans must likewise be taken as literal. Not that the tribes' names is literal.

    My reading of Revelation 7:1 and 7:4 says the 144,000 are on earth while Rev 7:9 says the Multitude are standing before the throne in heaven.


  • Vanderhoven7

    Yes, 2 different scenes; one earthly and one heavenly. John hears the perfect number and then turns and sees the actual group.

    The hearing and then seeing sequencing is a common literary device used by John to display images in Revelation. For example, John hears the roar of a lion, then turns to see a Lamb.

  • Bobcat

    Salomo, you might find this thread interesting.

  • waton

    wt and many misread Rev. 7, the first reference to the 144 000. there is written, that

    They come out of - out of - out of -13 out ofs- the 12 tribes of [spiritual , or the "Israel of god"],

    Clearly the 12 tribes are greater, more numerous than the 12 x12 000. of the "sealed ones".in Rev 7.

    Current wt teaching is: that these 12 tribes of non-anointed, non - 144 000 "sealed ones" are earthly hopers. so, indirectly

    wt teaches that the 12 tribes of spiritual Israelites are - the great crowd of OS in preparation. so:

    Salomo: yes, Spiritual Israel in innumerable'. like

    the stars, just you cant see them all because of the light pollution. old, new, and blinking, dim witted wt light.

  • Vanderhoven7


    I am somewhat confused by your post.

    I agree with you that the 144,000 are an innumerable company...but not that the WTS considers them as having an earthly hope.

  • Half banana
    Half banana

    I know that I may not represent the religiously inclined here but the fundamentals of Biblical information are all fictions. Abraham was a legendary character, his action of being able to kill his son is a repulsive model for obedience to the divine. The sons of Jacob are fictitious but they gave a structured foundational myth to a rabble of goat herders in Canaan.

    The nightmare of John is a fantasy to impress the gullible, it can have no practical use whatsoever--except to bamboozle and be used to draw any conclusion you like.

    Rutherford seeing the number of his Bible Students was approaching the number of 144K reckoned he had to explain away why and how this figure was going to be exceeded. He stole the idea of the great crowd and other sheep from an apostate Bible Student called Freytag who in 1921 had set up a new religion.

    Religion claiming "Truth" never uses truth at all -- so why agonise over doctrine?

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