Disassociation - shunning - can we all lobby Government that it is against freedom of religion?

by stockholm_Syndrome 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • stockholm_Syndrome

    If JWs want to inflict shunning on members who want to remain -- knock yourselves out

    But if someone wants to leave - dont believe in an evil almighty god, bible ...or just dont agree with the rules- they should be free to leave- even after being 'disfellowshipped'

    I think it was pre 1980 that you could disassociate yourself without shunning repercussions

    Even the 'bible evidence' for the precedence is based on people that are called your [spiritual] brother and part of the congregation --- what happens if you dont wont to be part of the congregation ( ive put research on my blog on this)

    I am thinking about talking to government that this policy conflicts with freedom of religion --- forcing families to shun members is SHOCKING

    I know there are multiple articles about the Watchtower saying you should be free to change your religion (if you are in a different-to-jw religion) ----where would I find this material to provide to authorities ?


  • Simon

    Think about what you're asking ... the Government would what, mandate that you get to go to someone's BBQ? It's simply unworkable and impractical and would be impossible to draw up legislation that wouldn't impact a million and one other aspects of life.

    Remember it works both ways too ... remember the Watchmen movie? There's a line in it where Rorschach says: "None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with *ME*!"

    We get to shun them. I would never want their association imposed on me or my kids.

    I go into more detail on this in The right to shun - wrong?

  • stockholm_Syndrome

    I think the time to strike is now!

    Royal Commission in Australia

    Feb 2017 saying "hey we give imperfect food and get things wrong doctrinely and organisationally"

    If it gets a bit of press -I'm trying to work out how to best maximise the exposure- we may force "new light" and make the lives of many of us - including our extended families easier

  • Finkelstein

    they should be free to leave- even after being 'disfellowshipped'

    They are but there are egregious repercussions, such as no JWS in good standing is supposed to talk or associate with these people, even their own family members which to me is really unlawful, cruel and reprehensible for both parties.

  • stockholm_Syndrome

    Maybe that works in your Situation Simon - but what if you had extended family -that you have an excellent relationship with -- and they start shunning based on direction from Elders - I'm not talking about someones BBQ

    I do not think they have the rite!!

    Maybe not everyone cares about this issue --- but I know a number do!!

  • stockholm_Syndrome

    Government can mandate that social exclusion cannot be recommended or enforced ---If it gets much press I am sure the watchtower would be worried how it affects there membership drive.

    The royal commission shows that Government will stick there nose into religion if it is in the national interest ---People demand it

  • jwleaks

    The governing body and the Watchtower corporation argue that shunning is a scriptural requirement and a law of jehovah god.

    This requirement of shunning applies equally to all who follow the bible or who are willing to recognize the religious freedom of jehovah's witnesses. Therefore all christians are permitted to shun jehovah's witnesses based on their own self-interpretation.

    If shunning is a law in the bible then it applies to all, equally and fairly with no distinction.

    If the prohibition on fornication is a law in the bible then it applies to all, equally and fairly with no destinction.

    Consider: two humans have a dispute. They have the legal right to bring the dispute before the judicial authorities and courts for judgment. Do they also have the Divine Right to bring their dispute before jehovah god - or his representatives (governing body and their agents the judicial elders) - considering his kingdom is apparantly ruling? If they do not have this right to receive a judgment from jehovah god then neither does jehovah god have the right to judge them under any circumstance ... ever!

    The nation of Israel was given the free choice of adopting god's laws, including the 10 commandments, when they were before Mt Sinai. They chose yes. Today mankind has been given no choice as to whether they accept god's laws. This is arbitrary with no freedom to chose. Therefore god's laws are null and void as theh have never been offerred and accepted.

    If the laws of the bible, and the rendering of biblical justice, only apply to christians who are jehovah's witnesses then the laws, including fornication and the judgment associated with it, only applies to jehovah's witnesses. The world cannot be judged.

    All jehovah's witnesses have the right to shun members as a disciplinary action. However, once the member is no longer a member the right to shun ceases. At that point it becomes the victimization and targetting of a former member or member of the community.

  • Simon
    Maybe that works in your Situation Simon
    Maybe not everyone cares about this issue

    You make a leap by assuming that common sense and pragmatism means lack of care or lack of being impacted by shunning.

    The reality is that if you sit down and think about what you're suggesting for 5 minutes, you'll realize it's never ever going to fly as an idea.

    The government cannot get involved in it because it would have to become the arbiter of every petty family dispute and every internal religious decision.

    You know who the ONLY people who can shun you are? The people concerned. An organization can't shun you, only the people in it and they are the ones that should be held accountable for their choice.

    Stop telling them it's OK because the WTS told them they have to.

    Stop giving them an excuse to do it and going along with the WTS notion that they have control.

    See: Doing the Right Thing, Making a Choice (shunning)

    Government can mandate that social exclusion cannot be recommended or enforced ---If it gets much press I am sure the watchtower would be worried how it affects there membership drive.

    Only for very specific situations - specifically parents of minor children. Even then, look at the complexity and cost of custody battles and subsequent enforcement. Is any politician going to open that can of worms up to way more tenuous connections on the basis of a small number of people affected?

    Shunning isn't a monopoly of the WTS / JWs - other groups do it. Is there any campaign to make it illegal by them? Why not?

    The WTS already easily handles the PR of shunning by deceitfully obfuscating the reasons / direct link to leaving and implying that they don't want to associate with members who don't uphold their beliefs and principles.

    That sounds like a fundamental freedom of religion.

  • stockholm_Syndrome

    At the royal commission here in Australia lawyers actually made Geoffrey Jackson look ill at ease talking about bible points... I think with the right ammunition..... and it would be popular with the public for the media...

  • Simon
    it would be popular with the public for the media.

    I doubt anyone really cares because most people, unless they are personally familiar with someone directly affected, just don't understand the issues and it's too much work to explain (for the media) with too little payback. Where are the bodies? There are far more dramatic things for them to cover.

    People see shows like Breaking Amish (whatever it was called) who also have shunning ... there's some morbid fascination with the problems but enough for people to write to their congressman? Not really.

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