by raymond frantz 45 Replies latest watchtower bible
Rattigan - “So the problem is the critics preventing them to do that, not the GB itself.”
Bitch, please.
There’s no fucking way they’d just let it fade into extinction. If there wasn’t outside pressure to reform (at least on paper), JWs would still be practicing every aspect of their religion the exact same way they were doing it in the 1930s.
Don’t try to put this on the “critics”.
They are not backtracking on their blood view. This is about blood fractions. -- Duran
Exactly.
No change here.
"This JW elder lost his life because of the ban on organ transplants"
It was still a choice that he made. He could have chosen to get the transplant.
Remember that health decisions and issues are private. The congregation has no business knowing such things.
Seabreeze said "The dead in heaven are awaiting a resurrection. 2 Corinthians 5:8, which suggests believers are "away from the body and at home with the Lord"."
There are no dead in heaven. Any in heaven are alive.
Here is how it works. Everyone who has died since Abel is in Sheol/hades/hell aka the grave. Since the time of Pentecost, Christians started getting anointed with holy spirit. When they died they were still dead. When Jesus became king, he cleansed the heavens as John 14:2-6 (prepared a place for the apostles) and Rev 12 says casting out Satan from the heavens. Then those dead in Christ were raised to heaven. Then after that time, any anointed left, when they died were instantly raised to heaven.
As for 2 Cor 5. It says "For we know that" Who is that 'we'? Paul and the Corinthians. Not you or anyone in this century.
vs 5 "Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God, who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come" That token is the holy spirit that they were anointed with. That 'us' is Paul and the Corinthians as they were anointed with the holy spirit.
vs 8 "But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord" So it is what they would prefer. That is not us today.
When Jesus became king, he cleansed the heavens as John 14:2-6 (prepared a place for the apostles) and Rev 12 says casting out Satan from the heavens. Then those dead in Christ were raised to heaven. Then after that time, any anointed left, when they died were instantly raised to heaven.
So, if you believe the resurrection has already occurred, then does that mean that you believe the 'last day' has come and the 'last trumpet' has blown?
[ 39 This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”]
[24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”]
[52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.]
[29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]
[8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.]
[4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]
[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
In the July 2025 Watchtower (Study Article 28, paragraph 17), Jehovah’s Witnesses are told:
“Each Christian must make up his or her own mind about whether to accept or to reject these [blood] fractions… So when should we ask a mature Christian for advice? After we have done our own research…”
At first glance, it seems like a modest, even humble, appeal to personal responsibility. But make no mistake: this is not about spiritual maturity. This is not about conscience. This is about liability—and it reeks of cowardice dressed up as piety.
The blood doctrine has long been a centerpiece of the Watchtower’s theological and cultural identity, enforced not merely through publications but through judicial action, social shunning, and unrelenting moral pressure. Now, as legal scrutiny tightens and the public grows increasingly repulsed by policies that have claimed the lives of countless men, women, and children, the Governing Body is playing a new game: plausible deniability. They want all the control without any of the responsibility. All the blood, none of the blame.
For decades, members were told explicitly that receiving a blood transfusion was a sin worthy of disfellowshipping. Families were torn apart, children died, and parents were lauded for letting their sons and daughters perish “faithful.” Elders delivered ultimatums in hospital rooms. Awake! magazine ran cover stories of brave martyrs who “stood firm” to the end. And now, just as the tide of global opinion turns and lawsuits mount, the organization dares to say: “Do your own research. The choice is yours.”
But the choice is anything but free. What Witness dares to reject the unspoken expectation? What parent wants to be seen as spiritually weak for authorizing a transfusion? The entire Watchtower framework is designed to steer members to the “right” conclusion, even while pretending to grant autonomy. A Witness who takes blood still faces social death by disassociation, even if it’s technically rebranded as a “personal decision.” It’s manipulation cloaked in compassion.
Apologists try to spin this shift as progress. “It’s just about fractions.” “They’ve always left room for conscience.” “There’s no hard rule anymore.” These arguments are disingenuous. If the Governing Body genuinely believed that accepting blood (or any of its components) was not a sin, they’d say so clearly. They’d abolish the Hospital Liaison Committees. They’d rescind decades of printed threats. They’d apologize for the lives lost under their directives. They’d disband the judicial penalties that still loom over every hospital bed.
But they won’t—because doing so would mean admitting that those deaths were not sacrifices to God, but to human arrogance. It would mean confessing that their understanding of divine will has been flawed, changeable, and deadly. And that kind of admission costs power.
Instead, they’re opting for ambiguity, letting rank-and-file Witnesses shoulder the moral burden they created. “Make your own decision,” they say, as if the ghost of a disfellowshipped relative isn’t standing in the room. “Do your own research,” as if the only available material isn’t their own doctrine, filtered through layers of euphemism and omission. “We never told them what to do,” they’ll insist, when the lawsuits come.
What’s more tragic is that none of this is new. This is the same playbook they used when they quietly reversed their ban on vaccinations in the 1950s after calling them “a violation of God’s covenant with Noah.” The same hedging they used when they outlawed organ transplants in 1967—calling them “cannibalism”—only to reverse course in 1980 without apology. The same backpedaling they’ll eventually do with blood transfusions, once the cost—legal, financial, reputational—is too high to ignore.
And when that day comes, it won’t be the Governing Body offering comfort to the grieving parents whose children died obeying a rule that no longer exists. It will be the same silence that always follows their doctrinal wreckage. No memorials. No retractions. No remorse.
So yes, the Watchtower now says the blood is on your hands. Not because they want to free your conscience—but because they want to free their own. It’s your choice, they say. But if you make the wrong one, you’ll still pay the price.
And they’ll still pretend they had nothing to do with it.
There are no dead in heaven. Any in heaven are alive.@Rattigan:
whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Cor. 5
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? - Rev. 6: 9-11
Duran asked "So, if you believe the resurrection has already occurred, then does that mean that you believe the 'last day' has come and the 'last trumpet' has blown?"
The first resurrection of the anointed who have died as already occurred.
What Martha mentioned about rising in the last days or actually being raised in the last days, was the resurrection to the earth. Her knowledge and understand was limited and vague, considering that the Sadducees were some of the teachers.
Paul's understanding was also limited because he was piecing things together too.
Stop relying on what people in the Bible said or wrote and understand the mechanics of the process itself.
It's simple. When Jesus became king, he resurrected the anointed who are already dead. Then during his time in the kingdom, as the anointed died they were instantly raised to heaven.
Then at the time of Rev 20:13 the resurrection to life on earth will begin and continue over the 1000 years and then what people will do matters.
@Seabreeze "You do realize that Watchtower has indoctrinated you don't you? There are lots of dead people are in heaven. I'm going there when I die."
No, the Watchtower has no indoctrinated me. No one had one that to me.
I understand how things work.
There are no dead in heaven. There are humans who have died and then were raised as spirit beings who are now alive in heaven serving with Jesus. But you won't be one of them.
What Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5 is not factual. It is just an example of his appeasing his readers with flowery language that made them feel good. Heaven is not home for anyone. It is not home, it is the office. It is where people work, to do a job. While he and his audience of Corinthians will be raised to heaven, you can't assume that you are part of that audience. Remember that Paul didn't know that the number going to heaven would be capped at 144,000.
Also what was said in Rev 6 was in signs and symbols. It's not real.
@Rattigan350
The promise Nathan delivered to David in 2 Samuel 7 was never an elastic concession that God could stretch, pause, or retract for twenty‑five centuries. In the biblical text the Lord swears to “raise up your offspring after you … and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” That oath is fulfilled in Jesus the moment He is conceived by the Holy Spirit and anointed at His baptism, not at some later celestial coronation in 1914. He is already Son of David and “King of kings” while walking the roads of Galilee (Mt 12:23; Jn 1:49); He mounts the Cross wearing a placard that openly proclaims His royalty (Jn 19:19‑22). There is therefore no biblical warrant for inserting a “Gentile Times” hiatus after Jehoiakim, for Scripture itself says God “removed kings and set up kings” all through that period (Dan 2:21) and that even in exile the Davidic hope looked forward, not to a sabbatical, but to the advent of the Messiah (Ez 34; Jer 23; Hag 2). The alleged 2,520‑year suspension is a 19‑century‑late arithmetic innovation, not apostolic teaching.
Because Christ’s kingship began with His exaltation, the veil of the Temple split at His death, signifying not a delayed enthronement but present access to the Father (Heb 10:19‑21). The New Testament says repeatedly that the Covenant people already share in a kingdom (Col 1:13; Rev 1:5‑6). No text hints that the heavenly city must wait for 1,900 years while Satan roams untouched. Revelation 12—which Jehovah’s Witnesses place in 1914—actually frames the dragon’s expulsion as the immediate fruit of Christ’s Ascension (“the child was caught up to God and to his throne,” vv. 5‑10).
The JW assertion that “no one who died before Christ can be in heaven” founders on Jesus’ own words. He pictures Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the prophets “reclining at table in the kingdom of heaven” (Mt 8:11; Lk 13:28) and promises the repentant robber, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Classical theology has always distinguished the limbus patrum—“Abraham’s bosom,” the happy Sheol where the righteous awaited redemption—from Gehenna. Christ’s descent “to the dead” proclaims victory, liberates those souls, and opens heaven, exactly as 1 Peter 3:19‑22 and 4:6 imply. Thus Moses and Elijah can stand in glory with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration long before 1914 (Lk 9:30‑31).
The first generation of Christians therefore did not lie unconscious until an invisible enthronement. Paul confidently teaches that “to depart and be with Christ is far better” (Phil 1:23) and that absence from the body means being “at home with the Lord” (2 Cor 5:8). The JW reply—that the “we” of 2 Corinthians refers only to first‑century "anointed"—is arbitrary. The New Testament does not present an idea of different salvation "classes". Paul simply writes those letters “for all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord” (1 Cor 1:2). If the Spirit who raised Jesus dwells in us, He “will give life to your mortal bodies also” (Rom 8:11). No expiry date is attached, not limiting the promise to a limited elite group.
Nor does Scripture restrict the number of glorified saints. Revelation’s 144,000 is a symbolic square of twelve, multiplied by a thousand, depicting the whole Israel of God sealed on earth, while John immediately sees “a great multitude which no one could count” worshipping in heaven (Rev 7). Early Jewish apocalyptic loves such literary juxtapositions; it was never meant as a census. To insist that the tally closed in 1935—and that Paul was ignorant of the ceiling—requires reading an 1870s corporate narrative back into the apostolic age.
In the New Testament, the existence of "heavenly and earthly classes" would have necessitated clear references as to which verse, passage, or letter refers to and is addressed to whom. There are no such references, so either we must discard the New Testament due to the astonishing and misleading negligence of the sacred writers, or the doctrine of separation. Otherwise, considering the alleged privileges of the 144,000, the masses of Witnesses take the Bible into their hands completely unnecessarily, as only a fraction of it pertains to them.
The JW dismissal of the Lord’s Supper for the vast majority of believers breaks with the earliest and most universal Christian practice. Christ did not limit His command, “Do this in memory of me,” to eleven men; Luke records that the Church “devoted itself to the breaking of bread” (Acts 2:42) and that Christians met on the first day of the week “to break bread” (Acts 20:7). Participation in the Eucharist is precisely how believers “proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes” (1 Cor 11:26)—not by abstaining from the elements. The claim that four written Gospels render the sacrament obsolete is a modern rationalization unknown to the Church or the Fathers.
Finally, heaven is not merely an “office.” It is the unveiled fellowship of the Trinity, the consummation for which the cosmos was created. Those who share Christ’s priest‑kingship do serve, but their service is perfect beatitude (Rev 22:3‑4). Traditional eschatology foresees a renewed creation in which risen humanity reigns with the Lamb, yet remains forever one family: no eternal caste system, no bifurcated hopes.
In short, the JW construction—pausing God’s covenant, limiting Christ’s kingship, postponing resurrection, capping heaven’s citizens, and withholding the Eucharist—rests on speculative calculations and selective readings. Historic Christianity, in continuity with Scripture and the apostolic Church, proclaims one seamless kingdom inaugurated in Christ, one communion of saints already sharing His life, and one Eucharistic memorial for all who believe until He comes again.
