Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou 168 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • nicolaou

    Morality is a product of evolution just like everything else. In parts it's messy, fluid and open to debate but at the core is something that all primates have learned over millions of years.

    Protect your group.

    It's so simple a monkey can understand it.

  • Fisherman

    Morality is a product of evolution

    Horsefeathers. First because false premise assumes evolution and because substances such as justice, love, kindness, etc., exist on their own and didn’t evolve.

  • nicolaou
    Horsefeathers. First because false premise assume evolution

    No. All the available evidence proves evolution. Proves, not assumes.

    substances such as justice, love, kindness, etc., exist on their own and didn’t evolve

    Again, no. Social evolution and the development of a sophisticated brain with complex cognitive abilities pretty much explain these 'higher' qualities.

    Reciprocal altruism and group transmission would ensure the long term survival of the species so it's really not difficult to understand how and why these traits emerged and survived. Look at any animal with a complex enough brain. Elephants, chimps, whales etc. Look at the emotional bonds between parent and offspring.

    If you can't see how love evolved you are blind.

  • Fisherman

    Proves, not assumes.

    There is no such proof that humans evolved from lower organisms.

    If you can't see how love evolved you are blind.

    It can be argued that the application of love or justice are social constructs but they exist on their own. Neither did truth and logic evolve.

  • cofty
    we are under a sentence of death. We are not God's children. He has absolutly zero obligation to any of us for anything good at all. Your next breath is a kindness from the Lord - Breezy

    It's almost impossible to get theists to focus on the actual question. It's not surprising since facing up to the challenge you are being presented with -rather than the one you wish you were being asked - leaves you having to admit your god is an evil monster.

    NOBODY SENSIBLE is saying evil proves a god can't exist. But evil - especially natural evil - proves conclusively the the god of christian theism is a fantasy.

    It is truly amazing to watch christians try to cut the Gordian Knot by admitting their god murders innocent babies without the slightest care. Except that it totally fails to solve their dilemma. A generic god might act that way but the god revealed in Jesus cannot.

  • lriddle80

    In thinking about this conversation:

    It's wonderful to be able to discuss these topics and say our real thoughts and feelings without fear. We couldn't do that as JW.

    I think we all made some thought provoking arguments. It got me thinking!

    These conversations help me as I am talking to others about God. I used it yesterday when chatting with my homeless friend and we had some laughs and it got him thinking about what he believes and ended up sharing some good stories.

    Good stuff! ♥️

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    @Seabreeze: you can’t just handwave the question about God’s internal moral consistency away by claiming he is somehow morally superior.

    We know it is wrong to steal, kill, lie etc.

    Wouldn’t know that from reading only the parts in the Bible that talk about God himself which is what we are talking about. God steals, kills and lies over and over again. I personally prefer the Jewish interpretation that G-d is neither good nor bad, he just represents all of us (humanity) and has both sides (Sheitan and YHWH) in the same person and the stories in the Bible are a warning more than a guidance.

    There are other books, besides the Bible, many that pre-date it or didn’t resolve from Western culture that prescribe very similar morality. If many things evolved many times independently, it seems only fair to conclude that it thus is an inherent morality and not an external one.

  • lriddle80

    What about this scripture?

    Matthew 224:6-8

    And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

    So Jesus literally said earthquakes would happen. He didn't mention tsunamis as a result of the earthquake, but I think it's a good point. If only we could have been there to question Jesus's morality in that moment! (Sarcasm)

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    @lriddle: depending on your interpretation of Jesus, if he were god and truly had the best in mind for his followers, he would’ve not been as cryptic with that particular message.

    If I as a parent know or am capable of getting to know that a war or earthquake is coming, would it be moral for me to say: hey kids, I know when and where a war is coming, I just won’t tell you when or where maybe in your lifetime, maybe a few generations from now, but better be ready, make sure to worship me for telling you. Also, I could stop all the war, you’ve seen me raise the dead but I won’t because I just want to see if you love me enough.

    That is some serious psycho abusive bullshit. Any parent that does that would be rightfully disowned by his children once they get to a certain age of understanding, I have done it to mine and I know others here on this forum have done the same for a lot less abusive psycho bullshit.


    My point is this… If there is a GOD, it’s not what we think/imagine it to be. Yes, any GOD that is pictured as loving, but allows children to die or commands followers to kill innocent children that just happen to be born in another tribe isn’t all-loving…

    Also, what does anything amount to in the end if there’s no afterlife or our consciousness doesn’t survive in some way? Maybe we make this existence that possibly has zero purpose a little easier for the next atom-splitting Bonobo that comes later, but maybe not?

    Here’s a scenario for you. You see the child teetering on the brink of the tracks. With no thought of your own safety ( how heroic ) you save the child but you lose your own life. All the other Bonobos praise you for the duration of the News Cycle. ( Remember the Submarine deaths? Now you do. See what I mean? ) A few random family members occasionally think of you from time to time…

    The child that you saved goes home to it’s abusive parents and grows up to be an addict that abuses it’s own children. One of those children becomes a serial killer who enjoys pushing people in front of trains.

    Now what?


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