Still Confused About The FDS

by NotFormer 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • NotFormer

    This was prompted by another thread where it was revealed that the GB were referred to as "our future kings" in a WT video.

    If I've got it right, the 144,000 are (or were until recently) the FDS. They are Jesus ' brothers? Everyone who is not the 144,000 are the "other sheep". They are not Jesus brothers. Yet the GB, who are Jesus' brothers, refer to the R&F, the great unwashed, those outside of Jesus' family, as brothers and sisters. But how can that be? The FDS (if that's still interchangeable with the 144,000) are from Jesus' family, but the non-144,000 (is that the "great crowd?) are not part of Jesus' family.

    Presumably if the 144,000 are Jesus' brothers, then God is their father. But the GB refer to all JWs as brothers and sisters. But the great crowd can't be the GB's brothers and sisters, because they are not Jesus' brothers and sisters. If the great crowd is not related to Jesus, then who is their father? They are not part of God's family, but the GB, who presumably are part of God's family*, refer to them as brothers and sisters.

    If the GB are "our future kings", then shouldn't the other sheep, great crowd, be referred to by the GB as "our future slaves"? The "once and future kings" and "once and future slaves" aspect of all this is giving me T. H. White vibes.

    As usual, I'm terribly confused by all of this. Have I managed to get any of it right?

    *That would be their assertion, I'm thinking.

  • TxNVSue2023

    Future subjects, not future slaves. There is a difference between those words.

  • NotFormer

    There's a difference? They're currently the GB's slaves; why would that status change if the GB became kings? Let's not get too nitpicky over words. Slaves is the GB's word, not mine.

    As an outsider, I'm going to get the specific jargon wrong, hence all the questions. But I'm trying to capture the spirit, not the letter, of the whole schemozzle. To me there seems to no inherent logic in all this. That they have recently massaged the FDS definition to only refer to the GB is problematic. What now is the status of the 144,000; do they matter? Are they the GB's brothers and sisters?

  • TxNVSue2023

    So if you read about the account of Sarah & Hagar in the Bible - both in Genesis & in Galatians.

    Sarah a free woman- would represent Kingdom subjects ( Jerusalem above is free) & Hagar is a slave woman - she represents our current condition as a slave to sin & death.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze


    All you have to do is read the bible literally, like it was inteded to be read. The 144K of Revelation are future male Jewish virgins acording to scripture. It is the WT that superimposes all the symbolic interpretations that eventually has duped millions of people into rejecting the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" described in Mt. 26: 27-28

    Have you not figured this out yet?

  • NotFormer

    I figured that out a long time ago. Unlike most JWs, I've read Revelation without a WT publication in hand. I've argued the passage about the 144,000 at length with JWs at the door. They are absolutely adamant that 144,000 is an exact, literal figure , not symbolic, even though it is 12 X 12 X 1000, all biblically symbolic numbers. Then I point out that the 144,000 are male virgins from specifically named tribes of Israel. "Oh, that's just symbolic", they say. Then I say, "Then why don't you count the figure of 144,000 as symbolic?" Silence.

    My question is to point out the inconsistencies I see in JW theology*. And the question still stands, according to JW theology, should the annointed (Jesus brothers) be referring to the vast majority of JWs, the unannointed, (not Jesus' brothers) as brothers and sisters? If they shouldn't, then why do they? To me it's just another example of a JW ramshackle doctrine that they've cobbled together without understanding its full implications.

    *Also to try and understand it better in order to discuss it better with JWs I meet.

  • NotFormer

    P.S. Has anyone asked a JW who believes that they are annointed what tribe they're from? Or what number out of the 12,000 for that tribe they occupy. I. E. are they number 11,357 from the tribe of Naphtali?

  • BoogerMan

    According to the Bible, who does Jesus say are his 'brothers'? (as per Matthew 25:40)

    (Matthew 12:50; Mark 3:35; Luke 8:21; John 1:12,13; Rom. 8:14; 1 John 5:1 (RSV)

    Jesus said that the meek would inherit the earth, therefore, all Christians (believers) become joint heirs with Christ when he inherits his reward from his heavenly Father.

    Jesus addressed God as his Father. How were all his disciples to address God? (Matt. 6:9)

    The Bible promises that Jesus would have one flock of sheep, not two different "classes," (John 10:16) and that there was one eternal hope (Psalm 37:29) - not two different hopes in heaven & earth!

    The Scrptures above clearly identify to whom they apply - all Christians in the one flock.

    (Matthew 12:50) For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, that one is my brother and sister and mother.”

    (Mark 3:35) Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother and sister and mother.”

    (Luke 8:21) In reply he said to them: “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

    (John 1:12, 13) However, to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name. And they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.

    (Romans 8:14) For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons.

    (1 John 5:1) Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    My question is to point out the inconsistencies I see in JW theology*. And the question still stands, according to JW theology, should the annointed (Jesus brothers) be referring to the vast majority of JWs, the unannointed, (not Jesus' brothers) as brothers and sisters?

    Well, I don't see a problem with them calling each other brothers. They all support the same lies and are all cursed according to scripture.

    JW's outside of the New Covenant are not anointed. Anointed means born-again, justified, declared righteous. All these terms refer to the state of ANY Christian who has agreed to put trust in Christ alone. That person has no sin debt because family members are not hired workers who receive wages. Instead, they are sons who receive an inheritance. Again....members of the royal family of God have no sin debt. They inherit righteousness. Way easier than trying to work for it.

    However, even JW's who do claim to be anointed are not anointed either because their trust is in WT, their own good works and not Jesus alone. Plus they are under a curse for teaching others to reject the new covenant "for the forgivenes of sins" that was never taught by the apostles

    Gal: 1: 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    JW's, both the so-called "anointed" and so-called "great crowd" preach an "other gospel" unknown to the apostles.

    Anyone outside of the New Covenant, or anyone who teaches others to seek God outside of the NC do not belong to God. They are not his. Jesus "never" knew them. They have a brotherhood of judgment and damnation.

  • TonusOH

    Remember that the GB consider themselves to be the conduit between Jehovah and humanity. God guides the GB through holy spirit, and the GB then brings "meat in due season" to the faithful. This is also the way that god provides "new light" to Christians-- through his connection with the GB.

    For the rank-and-file, this means that the GB's interpretation is the valid one, even if it may not appear to be consistent. And sure, they occasionally remind us that they are fallible men who get things wrong. But Jehovah can only work with what is available, apparently. So, even if they got it wrong, you have to believe it as if it is true. Eventually, they'll get it right. Maybe.

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