shepherdless:
Therefore (assuming the Bible is true) the event occurred in 586 or 587 BC.
No, it was definitely 587 BCE. The 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar including accession year, which is his 18th year not including accession year.
Maths Virus 1914
by Anna Marina 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Jeffro
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Harry
The Nebuchadnezzar Chronicle, also known as Jerusalem Chronicle, [1] is one of the series of Babylonian Chronicles, and contains a description of the first eleven years of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar II. The tablet details Nebuchadnezzar's military campaigns in the west and has been interpreted to refer to both the Battle of Carchemish and the Siege of Jerusalem (597 BC). The tablet is numbered ABC5 in Grayson's standard text and BM 21946 in the British Museum.
It is one of two identified Chronicles referring to Nebuchadnezzar, and does not cover the whole of his reign. The ABC5 is a continuation of Babylonian Chronicle ABC4 (The Late Years of Nabopolassar), where Nebuchadnezzar is mentioned as the Crown Prince.[2] Since the ABC 5 only provides a record through Nebuchadnezzar's eleventh year,[3] the subsequent destruction and exile recorded in the Hebrew Bible to have taken place ten years later are not covered in the chronicles or elsewhere in the archaeological record.[4]
As with most other Babylonian Chronicles, the tablet is unprovenanced, having been purchased in 1896[5] via an antiquities dealer from an unknown excavation.[6] It was first published 60 years later in 1956 by Donald Wiseman.[7]
Contents
Carchemish
The tablet claims that Nebuchadnezzar "crossed the river to go against the Egyptian army which lay in Karchemiš. They fought with each other and the Egyptian army withdrew before him. He accomplished their defeat and beat them to non-existence. As for the rest of the Egyptian army which had escaped from the defeat so quickly that no weapon had reached them, in the district of Hamath the Babylonian troops overtook and defeated them so that not a single man escaped to his own country. At that time Nebuchadnezzar conquered the whole area of Hamath."[8]
Siege of Jerusalem
The Chronicle does not refer to Jerusalem directly but mentions a "City of Iaahudu", interpreted to be "City of Judah". The Chronicle states:
In the seventh year (of Nebuchadnezzar) in the month Chislev (Nov/Dec) the king of Babylon assembled his army, and after he had invaded the land of Hatti (Syria/Palestine) he laid siege to the city of Judah. On the second day of the month of Adar (16 March) he conquered the city and took the king (Jeconiah) prisoner. He installed in his place a king (Zedekiah) of his own choice, and after he had received rich tribute, he sent forth to Babylon.[9]
Chronology
The Chronicle is understood to confirm the date of the First Siege of Jerusalem.[4] Prior to publication of the Babylonian Chronicles by Donald Wiseman in 1956,[10] Thiele had determined from the biblical texts that Nebuchadnezzar's initial capture of Jerusalem occurred in the spring of 597 BC,[11] while other scholars, including Albright, more frequently dated the event to 598 BC.[12]
There are no extra-biblical sources for the Second Siege of Jerusalem, which has been dated to 587 BC.[4] The date was arrived at by comparing the evidence of the Chronicle to dates given in the Book of Ezekiel in connection to the year of captivity of Jeconiah (i.e. the first fall of Jerusalem).
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Harry
Babylonian campaign and its outcome
Background
Following the siege of 597 BC, the Neo-Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar installed Zedekiah as vassal king of Judah, at the age of 21. However, Zedekiah revolted against Babylon, and entered into an alliance with Pharaoh Hophra, the king of Egypt. Nebuchadnezzar responded by invading Judah (2 Kings 25:1).
Siege
Nebuchadnezzar began a siege of Jerusalem in December 589 BC. During this siege, the duration of which was either 18 or 30 months (see below at "Chronological notes"),[1] the Bible describes the city as enduring horrible deprivation (2 Kings 25:3; Lamentations 4:4, 5, 9). After completion of the eleventh year of Zedekiah's reign (Jeremiah 1:3), Nebuchadnezzar broke through Jerusalem's walls, conquering the city. Zedekiah and his followers attempted to escape but were captured on the plains of Jericho and taken to Riblah. There, after seeing his sons killed, Zedekiah was blinded, bound, and taken captive to Babylon (2 Kings 25:1–7; 2 Chronicles 36:12; Jeremiah 32:4–5; 34:2–3; 39:1–7; 52:4–11), where he remained a prisoner until his death.
Aftermath
After the fall of Jerusalem, the Babylonian general Nebuzaraddan was sent to complete its destruction. Jerusalem was plundered, and Solomon's Temple was destroyed. Most of the elite were taken into captivity in Babylon. The city was razed to the ground. Only a few people were permitted to remain to tend to the land (Jeremiah 52:16).
The Jew Gedaliah was made governor of the remnant of Judah, the Yehud Province, with a Chaldean guard stationed at Mizpah (2 Kings 25:22–24; Jeremiah 40:6–8). The Bible reports that, on hearing this news, Jews who had fled to Moab, Ammon, Edom, and in other countries returned to Judah (Jeremiah 40:11–12). Gedaliah was assassinated by Ishmael son of Nethaniah two months later, and the population that had remained and those who had returned then fled to Egypt for safety (2 Kings 25:25–26, Jeremiah 43:5–7). In Egypt, they settled in Migdol (it is uncertain where the Bible is referring to here, probably somewhere in the Nile Delta), Tahpanhes, Memphis (called Noph), and Pathros in the vicinity of Thebes (Jeremiah 44:1).
Chronological notes
See also: JeconiahThere has been some debate as to when Nebuchadnezzar's second siege of Jerusalem took place. There is no dispute that Jerusalem fell the second time in the summer month of Tammuz (Jeremiah 52:6), but William F. Albright dates the end of Zedekiah's reign and the fall of Jerusalem to 587 BC, but Edwin R. Thiele offers 586 BC.[2]
Thiele's reckoning is based on the presentation of Zedekiah's reign on an accession basis, which he asserts was occasionally used for the kings of Judah. In that case, the year that Zedekiah came to the throne would be his zeroth year; his first full year would be 597/596 BC, and his eleventh year, the year that Jerusalem fell, would be 587/586 BC. Since Judah's regnal years were counted from Tishri in autumn, that would place the end of his reign and the capture of Jerusalem in the summer of 586 BC.[2][3]
The Nebuchadnezzar Chronicle (BM 21946), published in 1956, indicates that Nebuchadnezzar captured Jerusalem the first time putting an end to the reign of Jehoaichin, on 2 Adar (16 March) 597 BC, in Nebuchadnezzar's seventh year.[4] Jeremiah 52:28–29 gives the relative periods for the end of the two sieges as Nebuchadnezzar's seventh and eighteenth years, respectively. (The same periods are elsewhere described at 2 Kings 24:12 2 Kings 25:8 as Nebuchadnezzar's eighth and nineteenth years, including his accession year.) Identification of Nebuchadnezzar's eighteenth year for the end of the siege places the event in the summer of 587 BC.
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Jeffro
shepherdless:
Babylonian tablets record events in some years of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign, but the relevant tablet or tablets from (going from memory) the 11th to 20th years have never been found. The event isn’t mentioned by the Egyptians etc, either. Thus there is no record of the event outside of the Bible. Therefore 586 or 587 is not the “secular” date. It is the one and only biblical date. There is no “secular” date because the event didn’t occur, as far as secular history is concerned.
Though it is wise not to automatically trust religious texts as historical documents, it is a false dichotomy to dismiss out of hand the Bible's description of these events during the Neo-Babylonian period as 'not secular'. Also, automatically concluding that all parts of the Bible are unreliable because some parts are is a fallacy of division.
Stripping away the religious bias of the text, the core description of the events of Jerusalem's destruction is consistent with Nebuchadnezzar's activities in the region during the Neo-Babylonian period. Hence, while there is insufficient corroboration to say it definitely happened (or happened as stated), nor is it entirely without basis.
It is of note that the interpolation at Jeremiah 52:28-30 appears to be from a Babylonian source. Whilst the rest of Jeremiah chapter 52 is copied from 2 Kings, these verses are a separate addition. Also, unlike the rest of the book of Jeremiah, these verses do not count accession years.
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Anna Marina
Hi Slimboy - if you look again you'll see I describe arithmetic as a the most powerful tool of science. I did not say arithmetic was science.
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Anna Marina
Hi Shepherdless - You'll find when I talk about Maths Virus I am referring not to numbers (arithmetic) but to a mental fog that WT produces using arithmetic. This fog prevents a person from being able to get accurate knowledge.
I do not present a secular date - what I'm saying is that because arithmetic is involved, the bottom line is WT preventing you from calling the number 3, 3 when they want to call 3, 11 (plus a few other issues). In that way it is a secular matter.
The Bible does not say that Jerusalem fell in the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar anywhere. But it does say it was under seige.
(Jeremiah 52:28-29) . . .These are the people whom Neb‧u‧chad‧rez′zar took into exile: in the seventh year, three thousand and twenty-three Jews. 29 In the eighteenth year of Neb‧u‧chad‧rez′zar, from Jerusalem there were eight hundred and thirty-two souls.
(Jeremiah 32:1-3) . . .The word that occurred to Jeremiah from Jehovah in the tenth year of Zed‧e‧ki′ah the king of Judah, that is, the eighteenth year of Neb‧u‧chad‧rez′zar. 2 And at that time the military forces of the king of Babylon were laying siege to Jerusalem; and as for Jeremiah the prophet, he happened to be under restraint in the Courtyard of the Guard that is in the house of the king of Judah; 3 because Zed‧e‧ki′ah the king of Judah had restrained him,. . . -
Anna Marina
Hi Waton - No. No numerology here.
Numerology is It is often associated with the paranormal, alongside astrology and similar divinatory arts.
This is on the level of what you find in nursery school. We are at the level of
1, 2, 3
(Matthew 11:25) . . .At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. . .
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Jeffro
Anna Marina:
The Bible does not say that Jerusalem fell in the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar anywhere. But it does say it was under seige.
You've quoted Jeremiah 52:29 after that statement. However that verse, referring to Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year excluding his accession year, does refer to exiles taken after the destruction of Jerusalem (587 BCE) rather than the ongoing siege. (Also note that the reference to the '7th year' excluding accession year at Jeremiah 52:28 is the same year as the '8th year' including accession year at 2 Kings 24:12.)
On the other hand, the reference at Jeremiah 32:1 includes the accession year as Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year, and does indeed refer to the ongoing siege the year (588 BCE) prior to the city's fall.
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shepherdless
Quick comments, given comments directed at me:
Hi Jeffro, you might be misunderstanding my point of view. I am not saying that because the Bible is the only record of the destruction of Jerusalem, the event did not occur. I am solely focused on Watchtower’s strawman argument, where Watchtower claims that “secular” historians are the source of 586/587 BC. To repeat myself, outside of the Bible, there is no evidence of the event. Therefore, outside of the Bible, there is no date. The 586/587 BC date is a biblical date.
And in relation to whether it is 586 or 587, I leave that to others, because my understanding is that it is not so straight forward.
Hi Harry, your quoted text appears to confirm what I said, that the relevant Babylonian record is not available.
Hi Anna Marina, my comment was not directly aimed at your presentation. Your video did mention “secular”, which reminded me of the way Watchtower tries to rebut 586/587.
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Jeffro
shepherdless:
I am solely focused on Watchtower’s strawman argument, where Watchtower claims that “secular” historians are the source of 586/587 BC. To repeat myself, outside of the Bible, there is no evidence of the event. Therefore, outside of the Bible, there is no date. The 586/587 BC date is a biblical date.
Thanks for the clarification. It is certainly the case that the Watch Tower Society tries to 'demonise' 'secular' sources, and to use this as a distraction from the fact that the information in the Bible only actually allows for 587 BCE (unless an incorrect year is presumed for the start of Nebuchadnezzar's reign).And in relation to whether it is 586 or 587, I leave that to others, because my understanding is that it is not so straight forward.
Rest assured, 587 is definitely correct year. The confusion generally stems from some (mostly religious) sources trying to reconcile Bible verses about the subject without understanding the different dating systems used in different Bible books (and additional confusion about the interpolation at Jeremiah 52:28-30). Some sources also fail to properly account for the fact that the primary exile is properly counted from 598 BCE (rather than 597) because it occurred prior to Nisan of 597. Additionally, some sources refer to "587/6" because the Jewish year starting in Nisan spans parts of both years of our calendar, with the destruction of the city still actually occurring in 587 BCE.